Hi, I'm currently using the Dragonstrike... I have all the mats for the Dragonmaw and 4 Vortexes (but only 1 mongoose)... Should I just wait to see if I get a Vortex tonight in SSC or upgrade now and slap a +20 STR on it?
First of all, hand holding is for the WoW forums. Second, I think you mean "I'm currently using the Drakefist Hammer." Thirdly, if you're making Dragonstrike in the next 1-2 days, only put +20 STR on the Dragonmaw if you want to waste money. Lastly, is this question that serious that it needed to be asked? Your question has nothing to do with theorycrafting at all(not remotely close to needing advice), only to do with common sense.
This thread is sort of getting overrun with repeat questions and it's probably only going to get worse. Hopefully we won't let that get in the way of the useful theorycrafting.
Are all of these commonly asked questions covered in the OP? It's much easier if we can just quickly reply with "read the OP".
Thank you for your feedback.
Recent update:
+ Changed design slightly for compatibilty with Mac users (please post how it looks like now)
+ Enabled selection of weapon imbue including different WF proc chance if other hand has no WF on (you can see how drastically DPS decreases if not dual-wielding WF)
+ Enabled Storm Strike switch
+ Enabled selection of the totem (in hope that Blizz will add some)
+ Slightly changed skill weapon contribution to hit chance of WF (aasumed that it affects miss and dodge same way as it is for normal attacks without 19% penalty, SS remained unaffected by weapon skill at all)
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
I compared your most recent version of your sim against my model. They pretty much match the DPS now, difference is in the ~3% range with the default values, which is well in the expected range of assumed ideal distributions on my end.
You're UR & flurry uptime is very close to mine (again ~2%) compared to my most recent flurry model (which basically ignores the stormstrike "help" for now, since I'll probably change the stormstrike modelling a bit).
So as far as I've seen it, you're sim is looking real nice from the modelling point of view.
Thank you. It's like getting Blizz approval
Originally Posted by Rob
These all seem like fairly reasonable values, I am surprised that Haste is so low but I also think that was the least-well-supported AEP we created initially.
Remember that I am using post 2.2 value (1% = 15.75) for Haste rating. And no ppm procs were modelled resulting in haste being further undervaluated.
The OP covers it all, it's only a bit vague on the Syphon / RT or RT / Syphon models / Example.
But when one is at that point, one can just raid for a day with RT MH and SotN OH, and switch the next day see what works best. There is no need to say clearly wich combo is best (as it plays in the 1% margin, based on sims.) as a general rule.
Just how many shaman come to this thread and actually read the OP, AND have a RT and a SotN, and also ask this question? It's likely that more than half of the shaman that will ever get these weapons, allready have them.
You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.
Well, the most common question right now is "OMG with the haste nerf, is Dragonstrike going to be as good as any other combination possible ingame?" (sadly, I'm adding punctuations). So, how about we add small section with the Top 5 weapons people are asking questions about:
Knowing all these, we can break them down in to AEP. The *biggest* issue is Dragonstrike for people, seeing as I was even confused about this, figuring out how to calculate AEP for the item.
*** This is purely stat based AEP, weapon top end and speed were not factored in at all.***
Dragonstrike - 98AEP (scouring for the correct formula and I'm using 1.48 [PTR value])
Wicked Edge of the Planes - 94AEP (this is calculated for non-Orcs)
Rising Tide - 73.4 AEP (how are people getting 100+aep for this?)
Syphon - **no clue how to figure in the PPM but it's insane from what I'm reading**
Merciless Cleaver - 82 AEP
Fill in Syphon and it's a solid list, imo. If people want to go strictly by numbers, we can give it to them. If they want to go on gut feeling they can ask and we'll point them to the numbers since that's what we prefer. If it's a marginal difference - preference or style comes in to play, imo.
Thoughts? I beats having the question asked twice per page for 10 pages.
Well, the most common question right now is "OMG with the haste nerf, is Dragonstrike going to be as good as any other combination possible ingame?" (sadly, I'm adding punctuations). So, how about we add small section with the Top 5 weapons people are asking questions about:
Knowing all these, we can break them down in to AEP. The *biggest* issue is Dragonstrike for people, seeing as I was even confused about this, figuring out how to calculate AEP for the item.
Dragonstrike - 98AEP (scouring for the correct formula and I'm using 1.48 [PTR value])
Wicked Edge of the Planes - 94AEP (this is calculated for non-Orcs)
Rising Tide - 73.4 AEP (how are people getting 100+aep for this?)
Syphon - **no clue how to figure in the PPM but it's insane from what I'm reading**
Merciless Cleaver - 82 AEP
Fill in Syphon and it's a solid list, imo. If people want to go strictly by numbers, we can give it to them. If they want to go on gut feeling they can ask and we'll point them to the numbers since that's what we prefer. If it's a marginal difference - preference or style comes in to play, imo.
Thoughts? I beats having the question asked twice per page for 10 pages.
The fact that AEP values change depending on your current gear and the newly found bigger weapon skill effect (orcs racial benefiting greatly 3 weapons and belt of 100 deaths benefiting 2 weapons) makes the choice rather complicated. Did you include DPS difference in your AEP calculation for these weapons (this is why you get RT bellow WE)? How do you value speed difference? Syphon's proc is not important afaik.
Actually, I do feel that best combo for everybody is DS and Syphon granting you have the belt. Either this or double Syphon.
Speed and weapon damage were not factored in at all. That was purely stat based AEP. My goal wasn't to factor in anything else but that. People can then look at that, then do their own calculations with weapon damage (top end) + spd, and come to their own personal conclusion seeing as each of us will have a different opinion.
I'm with you, I still think DS will be one of thee best if not the best MH.
*edit*
@Yo!
Sadly, I have about... 5 more minutes here at work so the number crunches will have to wait until tomorrow but if you want me to weight the speed and weapon damage of each item, I'll type it up. Not sure the correct calculations, but, I'll learn them.
Hey guys. I was wondering if you've disscused the trinket from Sky guard exalted? Is it worth buying and compared to the trinket list on the first page, where would it be ranked?
Skyguard Silver Cross - Items - World of Warcraft ?
So you are asking if Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 34. is any good for a raid dps trinket?
(obviously, you ignore the other proc since its plain useless in raids)
edit: also, in danger of sounding like a moderator:
in general, EJ forums expect their members to do atleast a minimum of work themselves. No topic here should be used as 'hey guys, should I use X or Y?' when there isnt atleast a healthy amount of discussion possible about the choice.
I have the trink and i dont like it , The proc rate sucks at 30 % - Its good for trash since your always killing mobs , But on log bosses fights i dont like it at all.
Edit: remove a screwball question involving massive haste stacking, fast MHs, and WF totems.
(I did some rough back-of-the-napkin math and concluded that my silly, frivolous question was very silly and frivolous indeed, and would be best answered with the resounding "NO!!!" that I first was tempted to give it.)
Last edited by Yakout : 09/10/07 at 7:51 PM.
Reason: removing a question I "answered" myself
Given your lovely, lovely, delicious simulator, a (probably silly) question arose in my mind, though I'll admit it's likely not worth the trouble of exploring. With a sufficiently high amount of haste and a sufficiently fast mainhand weapon, might there be a point where it's reasonable to think that totemic WF could be on par with imbued WF for a mainhand?
Instinctively, I'm convinced the answer is a ringing "NO!!!", but I can't entirely dispel my morbid curiosity. Could very high haste, no MH CD, and freeing the (slow) OH from a linked CD come anywhere near offsetting the inferior nature of a fast totemic WF proc? Would it be possible to get at the code to make a version of the sim to test this crackpot notion, or could it be easily added at some distant future moment once all useful, non-frivolous features are implemented? Should I take my deranged curiosity and stuff it?
(I'm figuring this curiosity is, yes, likely leading me to pose a stupid question best left unasked, let alone answered, and worth wasting neither your time nor even my own upon, so stuffing it should probably occur posthaste. Would a veteran theorycrafter care to spend a minute's thought to confirm or deny its presumed useless frivolity?)
Edit: given that, were this even to have a hope of being feasible (which is an assertion that I cast a jaundiced eye upon) it presumably would take a maximal stacking of passive haste, and thus falls into a realm of speculative theorycraft beyond even FT + SDam musings. Having said that, tho', does it seem like there's a point where it might be possibly better? Or would, for that matter, the loss in damage on SS from a maximally fast MH offset any possible benefit from blazing CD-free WF?
Thank you for the idea.
I may model it. It is actually easier than explaining why Totem WF is a bad idea. (I tried to write down arguments such as less chance to proc out of cooldow, half damage from totemic version, self-stealing WFs, haste affecting 2 weapons so that their ratio remains the same, etc., but found them not fully convincing)
The fact that AEP values change depending on your current gear and the newly found bigger weapon skill effect (orcs racial benefiting greatly 3 weapons and belt of 100 deaths benefiting 2 weapons) makes the choice rather complicated.
Honestly, I did a ton of testing using the simulators found in this thread, and after many hours of simulations I discovered that the AEP values really don't change a whole lot with gear. My AEP values based off of my current gear are:
This is almost exactly what they were when I was wearing T5 quality gear, and it's almost exactly what they were when I was wearing T4 quality gear. There really aren't that many options in this game when you're upgrading your gear.
Most of the time we get to choose between maybe two or three different items and they'll either be so close in terms of quality that the choice doesn't really matter, or one of them will be so much better than the others that the choice is obvious. Adjusting these AEP values to account for your specific set of stats really is not necessary, and I doubt it will be until we're level 80.
Honestly, I did a ton of testing using the simulators found in this thread, and after many hours of simulations I discovered that the AEP values really don't change a whole lot with gear. My AEP values based off of my current gear are:
This is almost exactly what they were when I was wearing T5 quality gear, and it's almost exactly what they were when I was wearing T4 quality gear. There really aren't that many options in this game when you're upgrading your gear.
Most of the time we get to choose between maybe two or three different items and they'll either be so close in terms of quality that the choice doesn't really matter, or one of them will be so much better than the others that the choice is obvious. Adjusting these AEP values to account for your specific set of stats really is not necessary, and I doubt it will be until we're level 80.
Out of these 5 values 2 depend from others linearly directly Str from AP and Agi from Cr.
Out of 3 remaining Ap is always set to 1. You have to find out only what is CR and HR worth for you. But you have more stats to evaluate - Haste definetly, -armor not so but still.
So you have to find 4 weights (CR, HR, Haste and -armor). What is the chance that at least one of those numbers will be different from "average"? Lets take a look at one who is in the same league as you are - end-game raiding but choosed different stats The Armory
His 4 numbers are currently 1.9 CR, 1.7 HR, 1.65 Haste (he is hasted alot), 0.26 -armor
Comparing with your weights we have 5% difference for CR, 13% for hit, unknown for haste.
Will it be enough to produce different search results for some items - definetly so, though some items will still come being the best some will not. There are some items designed to be "Simply The Best. Period" while some designed to be alternatives. Sims help to choose between these alternatives and local AEP may be used for creating initial list (via lootzor ) of what to input into sim for further evaluation or to be used in-game directly (via Pawn).
I'm sorry to bring this up again, but the previous few posts have me confused again.
With those changing AEP values, doesn't it really suggests that its more of a certain preference to particular stats over other stats? Ie, if in endgame gear, you hope to achieve a certain amount of haste in opposition to higher AP and Crit, then your Haste Rating will have a substantially higher AEP than your AP/Crit AEP.
But to achieve max dps, we're aiming for the best loot combination, and this loot combination will be the same everytime as stats on loot don't change (subject to Blizz actually changing it).
So shouldn't AEP values be a static value, and shouldn't we be aiming for the best loot that drops in each instance?
Apologies if i wrote something that made no sense or is just idiotic, but im having a tough time grasping this new concept that you've proposed Yo!
Out of these 5 values 2 depend from others linearly directly Str from AP and Agi from Cr.
Out of 3 remaining Ap is always set to 1. You have to find out only what is CR and HR worth for you. But you have more stats to evaluate - Haste definetly, -armor not so but still.
So you have to find 4 weights (CR, HR, Haste and -armor). What is the chance that at least one of those numbers will be different from "average"? Lets take a look at one who is in the same league as you are - end-game raiding but choosed different stats The Armory
His 4 numbers are currently 1.9 CR, 1.7 HR, 1.65 Haste (he is hasted alot), 0.26 -armor
Comparing with your weights we have 5% difference for CR, 13% for hit, unknown for haste.
Will it be enough to produce different search results for some items - definetly so, though some items will still come being the best some will not. There are some items designed to be "Simply The Best. Period" while some designed to be alternatives. Sims help to choose between these alternatives and local AEP may be used for creating initial list (via lootzor ) of what to input into sim for further evaluation or to be used in-game directly (via Pawn).
My first question is how much time did you spend simulating his gear? I spent quite a bit on mine, doing many extremely long simulations to account for the variance. Also, I haven't used your simulator yet, so the difference in AEP values could possibly be due to a difference in the simulators.
Either way, I still feel the minor difference in AEP values is nearly meaningless in practical situations.
Nearly identical, although I'm a little confused as to why hit rating has a higher AEP value for him than it does for me, even though his hit rating is quite a bit higher than mine. I still feel like the answer to the question of "which of these items should I go with?" is almost always "whichever drops for you first".
This thread is becoming a victim of its own success with more and more tards filling up the pages . With questions like "sHaLL I gotz 20 agilityz ON offHAnd or MOOONgoose". READ THE OPENING PAGE BEFORE ASKING SOME RETARD QUESTION, and ask yourself has this been asked before or is this constructive.
Thank you for your feedback.
Recent update:
+ Changed design slightly for compatibilty with Mac users (please post how it looks like now) Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
I don't know if I have to download a JDK package for this or not (as a Mac user), but without anything downloaded, I'm getting a red X on the upper-left corner of the screen. If there is something I have to download to see this sim, you should throw it up on the website or at the very least on here.
It does sound like it's coming along good though, so thanks for all the hard work and good luck with fixing any other problems that might be occuring for Mac users.
Thank you for the idea.
I may model it. It is actually easier than explaining why Totem WF is a bad idea. (I tried to write down arguments such as less chance to proc out of cooldow, half damage from totemic version, self-stealing WFs, haste affecting 2 weapons so that their ratio remains the same, etc., but found them not fully convincing)
It did seem like it would be fairly easy to add, albeit of limited *real* use. Its greatest value would presumably be, as you state, to demonstrate why WF totem isn't a good choice, though if you do add it, it would let me satisfy my silly curiosity as to exactly how obscenely high haste would need to be stacked to make the totem competitive, if at all possible.
(My crude estimation was that a 1.3 dagger might be competitive with the totem if you had about 600 +haste now, or 870-ish after the patch, under the assumption that you'd need to get 7.5 attacks with totem WF in 3 seconds to equal 1 imbue WF plus 3 second CD. That math is probably way off, but it'd take an absurd amount of haste in any case to get enough hits w/o CD on the WF to reasonably sure to equal the imbue's proc, and that's totally discounting Stormstrike.)
I don't know if I have to download a JDK package for this or not (as a Mac user), but without anything downloaded, I'm getting a red X on the upper-left corner of the screen. If there is something I have to download to see this sim, you should throw it up on the website or at the very least on here.
It does sound like it's coming along good though, so thanks for all the hard work and good luck with fixing any other problems that might be occuring for Mac users.
I do not not know what Mac users have to do to make it running... (I have 2 Macs at home but they may run it in their dreams only). If someone post what they did to run - I will repost it. 2 things that you should check first - that you have Java runtime engine (aka virtual machine) version 6 (beta for Macs) and that your browser allows active content. JDK is not needed.
@Gaming - you need to get the Java 6 Beta, see 1 page back for the information on it where someone replied to me about it. Make sure you run the config utility for it from your Applications/Utilities.
Thank you for the idea.
I may model it. It is actually easier than explaining why Totem WF is a bad idea. (I tried to write down arguments such as less chance to proc out of cooldow, half damage from totemic version, self-stealing WFs, haste affecting 2 weapons so that their ratio remains the same, etc., but found them not fully convincing)
With WF totem, there are the following concerns:
no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple)
only one extra attack (200% multiple)
lesser AP bonus (scalar, I'm going to discount it from both).
Anyway, the point is, each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR.
each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.
While *possible*, it seems much more likely to me that youd get a better effect, come patch 2.3, to simply use the FT offhand option. But yeah, seeing it modeled to confirm would be nice.
no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple)
only one extra attack (200% multiple)
lesser AP bonus (scalar, I'm going to discount it from both).
Anyway, the point is, each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR.
each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.
While *possible*, it seems much more likely to me that youd get a better effect, come patch 2.3, to simply use the FT offhand option. But yeah, seeing it modeled to confirm would be nice.
Windfury Totem (Rank 5): Summons a Windfury Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards. Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 2 min.
Windfury Weapon (Rank 5): Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 30 minutes.
Elemental Weapons (Rank 3): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%.
Improved Weapon Totems (Rank 2): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Windfury Totem by 30% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Totem by 12%.
According to the description, it seems Elemental Weapons is supposed to be adding 40% to the attack power bonus of Windfury Weapon, not to its damage. But it appears from all the calculations in this thread that Elemental Weapons is treated as a 40% bonus to Windfury damage, not a 40% bonus to the attack power bonus. I assume that this was shown through testing? In any case, if Elemental Weapons is indeed providing a 40% bonus to Windfury damage rather than 40% bonus to the attack power bonus, then Windfury Totem is actually providing more AP bonus after talents than Windfury Weapon. Or is it possible, since the description of Elemental Weapons is apparently inaccurate, that Improved Weapon Totems is also really providing a 30% bonus to Windfury Totem damage rather than a 30% to the attack power bonus?
For Mac users out there that want to run the sim, it's pretty simple if you follow my instructions from P94. If you're still having trouble at that point, I suppose I could detail the instructions (though the readme included in Apple's download are pretty clear.
Yo, I see the changes you made to the overall frame's width and height, but the inner frame that seems to be defined for the tabs is still blocking the AEP values. Here's a screenshot, hope it helps. Thanks for your continued work on the sim.
09/10/07, 4:33 PM
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