Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 332

Macar · 04/02/08, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by iconocclast

My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.

Try using Yo!'s simulator.

Edit: automatica beat me to it.

Macar · 04/02/08, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by diggidy

Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.

Try using Yo!'s simulator.

Scav · 04/02/08, 4:17 AM

Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

testthewest · 04/02/08, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Scav

Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?

• Exewut · 04/02/08, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by diggidy

Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.

It's not that hard if you use logic.

For Mongoose/executioner to be better than Mongoose/mongoose, executioner has to be better than mongoose, right?
Which means that you'll need to put executioner on the weapon which will cause it to proc most, which will be the slowest weapon.

Scav · 04/02/08, 5:46 AM

Reply to #8280:

Originally Posted by testthewest

These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?

You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.

Omniro · 04/02/08, 5:54 AM

Originally Posted by Scav

Reply to #8280:

You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.

What he wanted to tell you with the 1AP=1.1AP was that you don't need to change any other EP values other than AP..
Say you use engame EP values as statet in the OP:

Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18

You can leave everything as it is, but assign 1.1 points per AP. Not so hard realy

edit: Now it dawns on me that this would be very incomplete, just looking at Str which would also gain 10% and surely crit would benefit (for higher AP meaning crit influencing dmg more) and haste/hit/expertise-rating concering the "hitting-more-often" of a mob...
ah well. for me i'll stick to what stands there and just believe that because it basicly changes every stats value, it will balance out in the end

(silly me...)

Raut · 04/02/08, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Scav

Reply to #8280:

You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.

It does. If AP becomes more valuable for you, it deflates other values. The actual numbers matters nothing, the ratio between them do. Since EP=AP, AP can never change from 1 EP.

This issue is discussed several times already.

Edit: Btw, AP can of course be bumped to 1.1 EP, but all it does is inflate all other EP values by 10%. I don't see the gain in doing this.

Freyalis · 04/02/08, 6:37 AM

Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

Aswell as what other posters have said about the relationships between AP, STR and the others stats. Remember that these EP values are generated by a simulator that takes into account UR already before it gives you the EP values. So you dont need to take UR into account afterwards.

So if you have an item liek you say with high crit and ArPen with a higher value than a piece with more STR then use the higher EP item.

Scav · 04/02/08, 7:23 AM

Ok, thank you for your answers

Kocmoc · 04/02/08, 7:55 AM

Well, after a few words i just will copy/paste a post i made on our guildshaman forum.

A few infos... Finally we was at brutallus, where u first time ever in late t6 area, u got the chance to compare gear/dps. Simply as u wipe a lot, before that many claim the teronfight, but by oneshotting him u have chance to compare with 1 fight each week.

This said. I tested around with S3-axe, rising, Syph and i tested the different enchants in OH, so i started with mongoose on rising and later i enchanted it with exe (since its unique weap, u cant get 2 of it).

I also played around with, madness and Beserker. Since Madness-procc should make sense to stack up for better armourpene.

Needless to say, that we use any possible boost, ret pala, frenzy war, pots, damonelixir....u get it.

Nr1. S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Mongoose

It seems that the executioner effect is pretty low (at least on this boss with 8k Armour), so the extra mongoose procc gave more dps. Also the 0,2 slower weap in OH raise the chance on a WF in MH a lot. The difference is like 15-20% more WFs for MH.

Note: this is completly against any opinion Jerks post. They claim that it doesnt has effect, if u got a slower Oh.

With a war who got frenzy, i saw full potted mostly a DPS range around 1700-1900.
This i did with Madness trinket.

Note: Jerks consider "Berserker trinket" as better, i tested it a lot. For me it seems that i can spike a lot more with it, but since we did lack tries with 2x lust it is very hard to say if beserker will be better. Imo its around same. I can imagin, that in a killtry beserker would be better since id used it twice on lust.

Nr.2 S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Executioner

To make this count, i have to stack as much armour penetration as possible. So madness is a must. I have no time to check when the boff proccs are up same time, but exe is up pretty much and the madness procc is also proccing around 2 ppm.

I lack other armourpenetration pieces. Im sure i would scale a lot better, with 500-1000 more, but i couldnt get that yet.

I say, this combo is like 50-100 dps below the Nr.1.

Note: with frenzy and the meta (3% more critdamage) crit simply scale best. Im sure, that exe even with more armour penetration never can get up to mongoose, at least with a frenzy war in grp.

DPS is around 1600-1700.

Nr.3 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Mongoose

Well, not much to say. First day i had mongoose on rising, than i changed the enchant to executioner.

With 2x 2.6 weap u get a lot more "luck" DPS, so sometimes i saw me on 1800+ and than next try i could only make it to 1500.

In Average the DPS is slightly lower than the Nr.2, i say its around 1550-1650.

Nr.4 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Executioner

This is the worst combo by far.

I was like 1400-1550 DPS in most tries, like i said earlyer, a lucky try i had surely once 1700, but in average its crap.

We had around 40-50 tries, this is based on average DPS.

With frenzy war, the extra damage raised by mongoose-crit seems to scale better than executioner (Brutallus has 8k armour as far i know).

The Slow OH, raised my WF average damage always. I dont got a second S3 axe, coz lack of time and lazyness

.
So its possible, that the S3 in OH would beat the Syph.

Trinkets, I switched Beserker with madness 50% of time (trophy is my other trinket), since u have to spike ur Blood fury - Beserker - hastepot + Lust to make it really scale, i have to admit that there was tries where i wasnt able to use lust at 2 min, simply as we did wipe before.

We use doublelust at timer of 2 and 4 mins, based by the CD`s of bloodfury/hastepot/rogue-CD`s.
If someone is interested i can look further in this and only compare tries where we at least got to the 4,5 min.

One thing i saw in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned, i still use it and for me its scaling best.
Especially as orc with already 5 expertice u go for 11 if u use axes, which gets u to 2,75%. At least till u get ur hands on the new t6 pieces, this belt seems best to me.

edit: I also would love to see "Damon Elixir" added, since in sunwell melee will mostly use this over flasks, at least on kill tries.

Koc

Mox · 04/02/08, 8:17 AM

Brtuallus has 8.8k armor (Atleast unless my mod lies) so that means armor penetration suffers from reduced DPS returns (think of the DPS curve, this much armor is on the steep part of curve so any move downwards has minor damage effect). From multiple sims I've done mongoose/mongoose has always out performed or equalled execution untill you get to <2k armor on a boss. With brutallus you're looking at 4.5-5k armor AFTER raid debuffs so it's pretty obvious that executioner isn't going to beat mongoose.

◊ Wraithlin · 04/02/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Hi Guys,
Ive made a post somewhere else and I think its so good Im going to make the same post here, with some quotes to divide the old stuff (awsome), from the new stuff (extra-awsome).

I decided to ignore the simulator and look at my recount even though our damage is very fluctuational, now I will make some baseless conclusions drawn from my tiny data set. Then Sebudai will come and post his meters showing him getting bigger numbers using the talent/gear/spec I just discredited.

to mak it xtra awsum I will also use lots of lol-abbreviations so u find it painful2 read.

Koc

Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.

Kocmoc · 04/02/08, 9:02 AM

Originally Posted by Wraithlin

Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.

Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.

Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post

edit:

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

Well, maybe i didnt point it out too well, but exactly this i doubt. Months ago people did also claim that there is a downmove of DPS from 1,4 - 1,5, which obviously wasnt the case. I had the same discussions at those times as i already stated that i cant notice this "downgoin".

Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.

Illundai · 04/02/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.

Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post

You should look up what a damon is, then look at your previous post. Yeah, you'll figure it out. Anyhow, maybe you should look up what a simulator does. Then you'll know why your post is dumb.

◊ forostie · 04/02/08, 9:09 AM

In an effort to be constructive:

Kocmoc: You do raise some valid points, but you're conveying them terribly. If you want people to take your work seriously you should read the posting guidelines and use your head.

What Wrathlin said I have to agree with also, the extra crit from Mongoose will be better than Executioner in most cases unless you have quite a decent amount of -AP.

◊ Wraithlin · 04/02/08, 9:17 AM

If you use a tool such as Loot Rank it would be obvious that the Vashj belt is best in slot, it is however a rare drop from a boss most people will kill once or twice ever, which is why it doesnt get much mention.

[e]
We use the simulator for a reason, that reason being it is impossible to gather statistically relevant data.
6 minutes is nothing, we can collect hours of data from the unkillable mobs in blasted lands, it still isnt statistically significant.

Kletha · 04/02/08, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.

First off, if you keep going like this (lol-chat-language) and "abusive"-talk toward other forum members you're gonna get banned. Both are frowned upon.

Also, the reasons the sim should be trusted over real-raid testing are quite many. Let me give you a few of them:

1. killing bosses (that are useful to test on) usually takes less than 10 mins. This is faar too little with the spiky dps we got. You'd have to do several 1000's of kills before you got a sample that's reliable enough.
2. the sim provides unlimited dps with no considerations. In a raid you have to consider so many things ranging from threat to lag to reaction time when hitting spells to having to possibly move due to other people etc etc etc.
3. the ways of gathering data in raids is fairly limited when compared to a sim where you can look at precisly what you want at what time you want.

When looking at raids there's always the "feeling" you get... A lot of people speak about this feeling but have nothing to back it up with. That's where the idea that being hasted between 1.4 and 1.5 speed would make a lot of difference in dps, something it didn't and several similar issues.

WantImages · 04/02/08, 9:48 AM

Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!

Rhaegal · 04/02/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by WantImages

Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!

I assume by FG and RG you mean FT (Flametongue) and RB (Rockbiter). Either way, the answer is 'no.' As should be very clear from the OP, there is never a situation where using a fast off-hand with any weapon imbue will compare to a slow OH and WF/WF.

An epic dagger with high dps (such as [Malchazeen] or [Guile of Khoraazi])and imbued with Flametongue can be used to temporarily replace a green or blue OH weapon. This comes at the cost of reduced Windfury procs, reduced Stormstrike damage, and a reduction in Flurry uptime. This should be seen as a stopgap measure only, not a weapon that you should commit to using for long periods of time.

In other words, yet another question that could have been answered by reading the OP and applying some logic.

[e] (That said, these weapons do suffer from a very bad case of The Dumb, and Blizzard really shouldn't have bothered. No one will ever use the off-hand, because it's terrible for us, and if a rogue is using a fist MH, they're generally using a sword OH. The only application I can imagine is an arms warrior picking it up for rage gen for execute spam, and even that's stretching it.)

Rapparee · 04/02/08, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned
"Damon Elixir" added

Those are the only two things I found in your post.
This thread is for theorycrafting. The main intention is to teach everyone how to determine what gear is best for them. Listing gear and calling it best is not the same as tea