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Old 06/22/07, 3:07 PM   #46
Grizlock
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Destromath
So do we have somewhat of a consensus on how to weight each value in terms of dps increase? It looks like it's shaping out to be something like this at around 3000 AP.

AGI = 2.5
STR = 2.4
AP = 1
CR = 0.8
Haste = 0.7
Hit = 0.7

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Old 06/22/07, 3:46 PM   #47
angral
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
haste is all find and good, but I'll let the rogues have it while I ninja all the loot I really want. :]

next thought, FCS reduces the dodge chance of bosses as well. I cannot currently find the link to the post about the differing % reductions to miss, dodge and block on increased weapon skill however :/

Even if +crit rating is very marginally better than +hit, I hate, loathe, despise and generally dislike seeing he words 'miss' 'dodge' 'parry' and 'block' appear when i'm trying to kill something.

Final thought: Hit has a cap. crit and agi don't. Setting and achieving goals makes for happy campers.

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Old 06/22/07, 8:51 PM   #48
TheOnly
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Grizlock View Post
So do we have somewhat of a consensus on how to weight each value in terms of dps increase? It looks like it's shaping out to be something like this at around 3000 AP.

AGI = 2.5
STR = 2.4
AP = 1
CR = 0.8
Haste = 0.7
Hit = 0.7
That doesn't look to be factoring in Blessing of Kings and the 3% to all stats talent.

Assuming the above.
STR would then be 2.72 (2.4 * 1.1 * 1.03)
AGI 2.83 (2.5 * 1.1 * 1.03)

Given two items of nearly the same dps from the above, I'll favor one with hit versus one without hit (until close to the cap).

Its not always about losing /gaining dps, its about personal preference choices when the dps difference is minor.

A link of all items sorted with the above values (top 12):
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=1...u.8hedu.7heeu1

Last edited by TheOnly : 06/22/07 at 8:55 PM. Reason: Lootzor link

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Old 06/22/07, 11:35 PM   #49
tunah
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Grizlock View Post
So do we have somewhat of a consensus on how to weight each value in terms of dps increase? It looks like it's shaping out to be something like this at around 3000 AP.

AGI = 2.5
STR = 2.4
AP = 1
CR = 0.8
Haste = 0.7
Hit = 0.7
Of course it depends if you have kings or not, and in most situations where it matters you will. Bufferd only with kings and my own MOTW i have around 3000AP.

AGI = 2.88
STR = 2.70
AP = 1.00
CR = 1.77
Haste = ??? (I still don't model this yet)
Hit = 1.26
Weapon = 12.33 (for things like the Crystalforged Trinket and ring enchants)

Given two items of nearly the same dps from the above, I'll favor one with hit versus one without hit (until close to the cap).
Very well put. The predictability effect is hard to quantify but it's definitely there.

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Old 06/23/07, 1:14 AM   #50
Grizlock
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by tunah View Post
Of course it depends if you have kings or not, and in most situations where it matters you will. Bufferd only with kings and my own MOTW i have around 3000AP.

AGI = 2.88
STR = 2.70
AP = 1.00
CR = 1.77
Haste = ??? (I still don't model this yet)
Hit = 1.26
Weapon = 12.33 (for things like the Crystalforged Trinket and ring enchants)


Very well put. The predictability effect is hard to quantify but it's definitely there.
I don't want to factor in kings. Why isn't weapon damage rated at 14 out of curiosity, because it doesn't add rip damage? Does the natural weapons bonus apply before or after +damage bonuses? Sadly I don't have a crystalforged myself to look at a paperdoll.

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Old 06/23/07, 8:35 AM   #51
tunah
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Grizlock View Post
I don't want to factor in kings. Why isn't weapon damage rated at 14 out of curiosity, because it doesn't add rip damage? Does the natural weapons bonus apply before or after +damage bonuses? Sadly I don't have a crystalforged myself to look at a paperdoll.
Ok, without kings i'm at
STR: 2.40
AGI: 2.65
AP: 1.00
CR: 1.81
Haste: ???
Hit: 1.23
Weapon damage: 12.33

Yes, weapon damage is worth less than 14 because it doesn't benefit effects that explicitly scale with attack power, in this case rip. (Also FB, although I don't calculate using that).

Assuming natural weapons was an old name for the feral portion of naturalist? Naturalist affects damage dealt in forms, not the 'weapon damage' stat.
I have a crystalforged trinket I can test with if I'm misunderstanding you.

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Old 06/23/07, 3:10 PM   #52
Schnigges
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Zuluhed (EU)
Does anyone know how the Everbloom Idol and Nordrassil 4pc Bonus work? Are they applied before or after Mangle?

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Old 06/23/07, 3:17 PM   #53
Solstice
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Nor am I modeling a two-roll system for either yellow or white attacks; maybe we should see what the rogues have decided with regards to that at some point in the near future.
As far as I know it's been decided already that yellow attacks are indeed on a two roll system whereas white attacks are on a single roll system. There's several threads on this forum with evidence to back this up.

Having monitored the WWS for myself and another feral druid over several weeks of raiding now, I can attest that crit % is consistently lower for yellow attacks than for white attacks when equipped with less than 8.6% hit, and the difference becomes notably more apparent with lower levels of +hit. To me this is a pretty clear indication of a two roll system on yellow attacks, and personally I'm satisfied that this is indeed how it works.

With this in mind, +hit (and FCR) becomes significantly more favorable, as Crit % on specials (CS%) becomes (Crit % x (100 - Miss %)).

So for example,
at 0% Hit and X% Crit, CS% = 0.914X
and at 1% Hit, CS% = 0.924X

With say 40% crit that's an increase of 0.4% CS per +1% hit which provides a fairly significant increase in dps, all things considered.

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Old 06/23/07, 4:29 PM   #54
tunah
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Solstice View Post
Having monitored the WWS for myself and another feral druid over several weeks of raiding now, I can attest that crit % is consistently lower for yellow attacks than for white attacks when equipped with less than 8.6% hit, and the difference becomes notably more apparent with lower levels of +hit. To me this is a pretty clear indication of a two roll system on yellow attacks, and personally I'm satisfied that this is indeed how it works.
Thanks a lot for this, I'll update to take this into account.

With this in mind, +hit (and FCR) becomes significantly more favorable, as Crit % on specials (CS%) becomes (Crit % x (100 - Miss %)).

So for example,
at 0% Hit and X% Crit, CS% = 0.914X
and at 1% Hit, CS% = 0.924X

With say 40% crit that's an increase of 0.4% CS per +1% hit which provides a fairly significant increase in dps, all things considered.
This part I'm not convinced by. Roughly speaking, I've assumed that if you miss a yellow attack then you wait 0.7 seconds (for a 40 energy attack) and try again, and thus get another shot at critting.
However there will be an increase to the worth of +hit, because a single-roll system with refunds on misses inflates your effective crit rate when you miss a lot. Extreme example: 50% crit, 50% miss, on average it takes you 2 attempts to land an attack, so the energy cost is 118% of normal and your effective crit rate is 100%. Adding +hit will reduce your DPS. This effect is represented in my model by reducing the energy cost of attacks by a proportion of your miss rate, while leaving crit damage unchanged.
EDIT: better way of saying this - in a single roll system with refunds, your attacks cost less energy on average, if you miss a lot. Since crit rate is unaffected by miss rate, and energy cost goes down with more misses, DPE of crits goes up and so crit rating is overvalued.
It's possible this is just another way of looking at the same thing, I haven't had my coffee yet

Last edited by tunah : 06/23/07 at 7:49 PM. Reason: reworded bit about crit inflation in single roll system

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Old 06/23/07, 4:49 PM   #55
tunah
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Eldre'Thalas
Mystery solved?

With yellow attacks on a two roll system + my gear, hit has gone up and crit down, as expected.

No Kings
STR = 2.45
AGI = 2.52
AP = 1.00
CR = 1.67
Haste = ???
Hit = 1.72
Wdmg = 12.33

Kings
STR = 2.70
AGI = 2.80
AP = 1.00
CR = 1.69
Haste = ???
Hit = 1.75
Wdmg = 12.36


Updated sheet also has a calculator in the gems tab to work out the best blue gems for an item, taking into account socket bonuses, since Pawn doesn't do this very well.

Last edited by tunah : 06/23/07 at 4:54 PM.

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Old 06/23/07, 6:43 PM   #56
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Solstice, this doesn't make hit significantly more useful at all. It does make it slightly better, though, but still it has no effect on the primary idea that a missed special costs little energy. Granted it's slightly better than it would be with a 1-roll system, but far from significantly more useful.

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Old 06/24/07, 12:21 AM   #57
Solstice
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Heh, well it depends what you deem to be "significant". I'd argue that an extra 0.4% crit on specials (non-finishers) per 1% hit is more than "slightly" better than none. I agree that it's not effecting the point in question but nevertheless it's a fairly notable factor when determining how much weight to put on +hit, at least for me.

However there will be an increase to the worth of +hit, because a single-roll system with refunds on misses inflates your effective crit rate when you miss a lot. Extreme example: 50% crit, 50% miss, on average it takes you 2 attempts to land an attack, so the energy cost is 118% of normal and your effective crit rate is 100%. Adding +hit will reduce your DPS. This effect is represented in my model by reducing the energy cost of attacks by a proportion of your miss rate, while leaving crit damage unchanged.
EDIT: better way of saying this - in a single roll system with refunds, your attacks cost less energy on average, if you miss a lot. Since crit rate is unaffected by miss rate, and energy cost goes down with more misses, DPE of crits goes up and so crit rating is overvalued.
Hmm, interesting. So wait, let me check I'm understanding this correctly.

In a single roll system, increasing +hit actually reduces your effective crit, because if you score a hit rather than a miss then you can't then use 82% of the same "lump" of energy to try and land a crit. So DPE of crits effectively increases as you reduce your chance to hit.

Inversely, in a two roll system increasing +hit increases your effective crit because you can't crit if you can't hit - there's a roll for hit/miss/dodge (block/parry) and on hit there's another roll for crit/non-crit. Therefore you can't "re-use" the energy recouped from a miss in order to crit as miss and crit aren't on the same table.

This seems to provide some logical explanation as to why Blizz chose to implement a 2 roll system for specials.

While it's interesting to try and model the relative value of +hit compared to other stats, I think there's limited value in the results as there are simply too many permutations. Some of them have already been mentioned, such as clearcast procs, missed finishers, missed mangles causing reduced rip ticks, etc. These are possible (although probably not easy) to model. But then there's the human element, which will vary from player to player and is not something that you can really quantify. For example things like missing a mangle then shredding without the debuff up, or missing a shred when on 4cp and ripping before you notice, or missing a special at 50+ energy and powershifting.

So while I don't doubt your figures I don't think that you can look at them and deduce that say, "1 strength = 0.7 hit" in terms of raw dps - while this might be true in theory, in practice there are other factors involved that can't be modeled which make +hit more valuable. My gut feeling is that, point for point, +hit is the most valuable dps stat right up to 8.6%.

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Old 06/24/07, 2:11 AM   #58
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
Lord BEEF's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Solstice View Post
So while I don't doubt your figures I don't think that you can look at them and deduce that say, "1 strength = 0.7 hit" in terms of raw dps - while this might be true in theory, in practice there are other factors involved that can't be modeled which make +hit more valuable. My gut feeling is that, point for point, +hit is the most valuable dps stat right up to 8.6%.
World of Warcraft doesn't run on a Gut based calculation system. If you disagree with the math and think there are things that it's not modeling then by all means question that. However to look at such a giant disparity with accurate math behind it and disagree with it fully seems a bit silly. There are human issues for sure but I can't imagine that making up for a 30% difference.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

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Old 06/27/07, 12:58 PM   #59
Fenwrath
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion
Crit/Damage increase

I havn't read every response to your message thoroughly however I do notice you are equating 1% increase in crit change to a 1% (or slightly more talented) increase in overall damage for skills affected by crit. I think it should be noted that a critical strike increases damage by 150% (or slightly more talented) and thus your conversion should be 1% crit -> .5% overall damage increase for the subset of your attack that include critical strikes.

Has the damage multiplier for critical strikes increased from 1.5 to 2? I'm almost positive it's always been 150%.

This would certainly account for the confusion you state in your original post. Please correct me if I've missed or misunderstood something.

--------------------------
the above has been corrected in following posts

Last edited by Fenwrath : 06/27/07 at 1:19 PM.

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Old 06/27/07, 1:00 PM   #60
• Vykromond
the staleness of Max's dumps
 
Vykromond's Avatar
 
Vykromond
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Melee crits deal double damage.

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