[Shaman] Elemental PvE - Spell Pen?

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 2:15 PM

Background - I took up dragonscale lw to create the Netherstrike Set and keep my mana efficency up via the [Drums of Restoration] instead of being slave to mana pots (or at least as much of a slave to them).

To my dismay, the set carries 3x Blue Gem Slots coupled with compelling socket bonuses. Since I do want to retain the bonuses and not limit my options for a Meta Gem, I decided to go with 3x of the +Dam/+Spell Pen Gems. I chose this as I stay right at hit cap with gear + spec yet I am often getting partial/full resists on Raid targets.

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Forward - I was recently a bit 'called out' for my 'poor' selection of gem. Which sparked a bigger debate for me:

How effective is Spell Penetration in PvE Raiding?

I have done some research and come up with little to offer in ways of support or refuse for the stat. Little seems to be known. I do know that my Nature Spells are not bolstered by CoE/CoS and that being able to penetrate some minor amounts of resistance can't be a bad thing.

What is the (if any) resistance of a Raid Mob/Boss under normal circumstances?

What is the (if any) resistance of a Raid Mob/Boss under special resistance circumstances? (Like SSC, The Eye)

Thanks for any insight.

Nite_Moogle · 06/20/07, 2:26 PM

Spell Penetration is totally and completely worthless in PVE and has never been proven to be useful in a single encounter.

I need to add that to the sticky, I guess.

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

Spell Penetration is totally and completely worthless in PVE and has never been proven to be useful in a single encounter.

I need to add that to the sticky, I guess.

Thanks for the quick reply.

So by your experiences, there is no base resistances on ?? NPC's or any effect that Spell Penetration can play in reducing the amount of full/partial resists that I get (even at +hit cap)?

Lambach · 06/20/07, 2:38 PM

Usually I'd agree with you moogle. However, don't we usually base that on the fact that the locks have COE/COS up? With an elemental shaman, wouldnt they still have to burst through that extra resistance the mob has?

Nite_Moogle · 06/20/07, 2:41 PM

Unless someone discovers that a boss has a resist rate at or above 20% over the course of a few weeks throwing lightning bolts at it, I sincerely doubt it. Very few mobs have any sort of resists at all, they are generally either immune or everything hits/resists at an expected rate. If this does turn out to be the case then a small amount of spell penetration might prove useful.

Roywyn · 06/20/07, 2:45 PM

Almost all the partial (and even some total I think) resists you see on raid bosses - and any mob with a level higher than you, i.e. 71+ - are due to level difference, and cannot be overcome by anything at all.

In PvE, 99% of the mobs you face have zero resistances, making spell penetration useless against them.

Noticable exceptions:
Molten Giants/Destroyers and Golemagg - fire resistance
Azuregos - frost resistance
Chromatic and Nether Dragonkin (UBRS, Netherstorm, Nazan in Hellfire Ramparts) - resistance to many schools
Arcane Protectors - ~150 arcane resistance

That should be about it, correct me if I missed something.

All other mobs you face have zero resistances (some are immune and you just have to switch spells scholls / raid spots, but that's another matter), having CoS/CoE will only increase the damage done by 10-13% and have no other impact.
No resistance there, nothing that spell penetration will change. Except for eating up item budget.

Unless you want to gear only for farming Heroic Ramparts, just forget about spell penetration.

Overhead · 06/20/07, 2:45 PM

Magmadar and his hounds are the last mobs that I can think about that had any resist (fire) short of immunity. In the vast majority of cases, that spell penetration does absolutely nothing. It's a pvp stat to counter resist gear, pally auras, shammy totems, and drood buffs.

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 2:53 PM

Off to Wowhead to find a more suitable gem. >.> I think I recall not really seeing anything of interest before leaving me fixated on the Spell Pen to begin with.

Edit: Seems like I can add some stam while retaining the +Crit in that position, I will do this in due time.

Thanks for the input, so far I like what I see from the threads in this forum. It is refreshing to not seek advice on the WoW Boards.

kraj · 06/20/07, 3:24 PM

Has anyone actually thoroughly tested this?

I know it's simply conjecture based, but when I added 40 spell pen to my PVE elemental gear I noticed less partials(this was starting back on gruul).

Now this is based solely off personal experience, and obviously can be clouded--but is there actual evidence of all current raid mobs having no innate resistance?

Nite_Moogle · 06/20/07, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by kraj

Has anyone actually thoroughly tested this?

I know it's simply conjecture based, but when I added 40 spell pen to my PVE elemental gear I noticed less partials(this was starting back on gruul).

Now this is based solely off personal experience, and obviously can be clouded--but is there actual evidence of all current raid mobs having no innate resistance?

WWS or it didn't happen.

Phro · 06/20/07, 3:42 PM

So, if penetration is really worthless does that make:
Formula: Enchant Cloak - Subtlety
the best enchant for a ele shammy?

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Phro

So, if penetration is really worthless does that make:
Formula: Enchant Cloak - Subtlety
the best enchant for a ele shammy?

Hehe

I have actually theorycrafted the +26 Healing/ -2% Threat Meta Gem >.>

God Bless my fellow aggro (dunno if I can swear here) Shaman.

Lambach · 06/20/07, 3:51 PM

The Big robots in Kara in the library have about 150 arcane resist.

To the OP, even after all this conjecture, I don't think there is any way that spell pen can be better then other gems you could have in those sockets, even if mobs do resist. I'd suggest 9 spell dmg for all your sockets.

Sarutobi · 06/20/07, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Totemologist

Off to Wowhead to find a more suitable gem. >.> I think I recall not really seeing anything of interest before leaving me fixated on the Spell Pen to begin with.

Unfortunately the only stat other than spell penetration that can be found on blue/blue hybrid gems that would be of interest to a DPS caster would be mp5, which currently is never on a gem that also has spell damage (only healing). I did find a couple gems that may work for you though (all green gems, all from heroics).

Lambent Chrysoprase Spell Hit + mp5
Rune Covered Chrysoprase Spell Crit + mp5
Dazzling Chrysoprase Int + mp5 (I know it's not ideal, but it does help w/ sustained DPS (slightly))

Originally Posted by Lambach

I'd suggest 9 spell dmg for all your sockets.

The problem there, though, would be he would lose all of the socket bonuses. (All of the sockets on the set are either blue or yellow.)

Totemologist · 06/20/07, 4:34 PM

The problem there, though, would be he would lose all of the socket bonuses. (All of the sockets on the set are either blue or yellow.)

Aye. That and most of the Meta Gems that interest me have some Blue Gem requirement.