Nite_Moogle

Spell penetration has never been proven to be worthwhile in TBC, and it has absolutely nothing to do with reclaiming partial resists from bosses at all. This is pure fabrication and a completely inaccurate post.

Contingency.

 

vorda

My knowledge on spells is limited, but how (and why) do you relate spell penetration with partial resists?

And dont sign your posts.


edit: nvm, you were -as I suspected- completely uncorrect. I just failed to notice that there was another reply already.

 

Benji

Proven by who?
Read the description text for SP in the game, on your character sheet.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The research ive done, has led me to my conclusion.
Clearly you are completely against SP, and hate it with a passion.
You dont have to agree with me that it has a place, despite how minute it may be... but you don't have to be agressive and rude about it guys.



If you dont think any bosses have resistances beyond those mentioned, think again.

 

vorda

Do you by any chance have some solid numbers, logs, etc on that research? I'd be very interested to see it.

 

Benji

Thank you for your aggressive comments, but I have no desire to share any more information with you on the subject. You aren't asking for intel, you are looking for a fight, and this isnt the place for it.

Thats all i'll say on the matter.

 

Kirion

How about.. well read mage threads? Or even official forum threads? Spell penetration cant overcome level based resists, and there is no single boss in tbc that have resistance above level based. Linking description of spell penetration in game is same crap as linking class description from wow official site.

42.

 

vorda

I defenitly am not looking for a fight. You'll have to give us more then your word when trying to prove current accepted theories wrong, though if you can, you'll find us to be a very constructive and helpfull audience.

If you cant however, you'll find us to be very unforgiving towards breaking forum rule #2.

(my previous post was by no means sarcastic, I really *am* interested in your numbers)

 

Starbucks

The easiest way to prove this is for a warrior with thunderfury to attack a blasted lands mob and the shaman to record a combat log from 100% mana to 0% mana and the warrior to not use thunderfury and do the same, though saying that those are level 55 mobs and we would need 73 mobs to make a true comparison, I cannot think of many "no outside variable" mobs you can test for this if you want to, but a 73 mob and using thunderfury or not using it is the best bet

The benefactors bar has no threads as such, just multiple discussions in multiple threads. If you find a thread which is completely on topic then something is wrong

 

Roywyn

Free cookies for people who name raid mobs with resistances (beyond those just mentioned).
Free cake for raid bosses!

Edit to posts below:

I don't actually remember Razorgore and Broodlord as fire resistant, seems I'm getting old

For Malonscribe - on Al'ar, I saw nothing that pointed at frost/arcane resistace, our lightning shaman didn't complain, and shadow damage was high as usual.
So, no choci cake for you this time :o

 

Starbucks

Does Al'Ar have resistances (guild not progressed that far) if so I will have chocolate cake

The benefactors bar has no threads as such, just multiple discussions in multiple threads. If you find a thread which is completely on topic then something is wrong

 

Pheroz

Saying Frost is binary and fire is not is also horribly wrong. It generally turns out that way, but not becuase of the school.

Spells that have a nondamage affect are binary. Since the secondary affect can only be either resisted or not, and not partially, damage goes in the same category. Likewise, spells that have no nondamaging effects are not binary.

Generally speaking, most frost spells will be binary, becuase most frost spells have a slowing affect. Likewise, most fire spells will be nonbinary, becuase most fire spells do damage and nothing more.

But try and find a partial resist on Dragon's Breath.

I would love to find evidence of spell penetration doing something in PvE. Becuase you need that evidence to back up claims like spell pen causes an "increase in damage occurance". Otherwise thats just an assumption. I have a guildie who thinks that spell pen has to do that, becuase, otherwise "why would Blizz put such a useless stat in the game?"

If spell penetration will increase damage, I'm all for it. But since I've got no evidence to support that, and in fact, the WWS parses I've seen all show minimal variances in spell mitigation regardless of spell pen on the caster, I have to go with the working theory that the stat is dead useless in PvE.

 

galzohar

Exactly.
Well I was told the trash after curator is resistant to arcane, but seriously if that's what you're trying to gear up for you need other kinds of help... I'd seriously rather gear for all the other mobs and bosses in the game rather than gearing for dealing more arcane damage (which most don't use anyway) on those mobs.
Curator himself is arcane immune afaik.
Al'ar is fire immune.
Hydross is frost immune 1/2 the time and nature immune the other 1/2.
All the mobs in MC that aren't fire immune have somehwere around 100 FR, with golemmag having more.
Razoregore and broodlord have high fire resistance.
Ebonroc was reported to have some shadow resistance but I'm not 100% sure on that.
Last boss in ramparts (norm and heroic) either has resistance to all schools or a plain damage reduction. Chromatic drakonids in BWL also seem to take reduced damage, but I'm not sure if it's resistance based or a plain magic damage reduction buff.
That sums up of all the mobs in the game I know that have any resistances. And seriuosly if those mobs is what matters for you, I don't know what to tell you. Also if there's some odd trash mob or outdoor mob out there with some resistance to something I still don't give a damn - as long as the bosses don't have any resistnaces, which is what had been reported so far and fits with what I see in game (even though I didn't go through thorough testing), spell penetration remains useless aside from facing high level arena teams that gear up for resisting your school of magic.

As for testing, it's pretty easy:
24 resistance is roughly 5% damage reduction on average. If you lost ~5% of your DPS on a boss to PARTIAL resists (a full resist is not possible with 24 resistance, so all full resists were "misses"), spell penetration definitely won't make it better (assuming your testing had enough samples).
If you're using binary spells you have to add up your miss rate as the resists will show up the same as misses on the combat log, so say if you have 3% miss, losing 8% of your DPS to "resist"s means spell penetration would not have done anything. Then again I've also had people tell me that binary spells don't get partial resists from the inherent boss resistance, but I've never really seen any reliable info about it.

 

Totemologist

It is pretty crazy that this Stat has no known, definitive effect on the majority of PvE content. It would be nice if Blizz would release a bit more info about creatures in general and even layout base armor, resistances, power, and other stats on the creatures in game (none exists that I have seen).

Before reading alot of what is offered here I equated Resistance (spell) to Armor (melee) as a PvE stat...and nothing in game suggests the contrary. It would seem the more I think about it that Spell Pen is a PvP stat seeing as how the majority of creatures are believed to not have base (penetrable) spell resistance.

Most resists I get (being at hit cap) are partial, leading me to believe that spell peneration could minimize this at a low budget for me. I am starting to believe that this is incorrect now.

 

Maax

If they simply brought back vulnerability bonuses it would be a useful stat again.

Devs: Our nerfs will block out the sun!
Druids: Then we will tank in the shade.

 

Groglox

Someone should ask the itemization team what the hell it is still doing on armor at Blizzcon.

 

Kavan

As was posted before I would suggest reading the mage thread TBC Mage Theorycrafting posts #2280-#2401.

 

dalien

Supremus? We fought him for the first time this weekend and while he's not immune to fire, almost every fireball had a partial resist on it (with CoE up). Here's the report if anyone wants to see it:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...9-20062&ab=140

He's an easy enough boss where it doesn't really matter, but I'm tempted to throw a bunch of spell-pen gems in my old gear and try it next week on him, to see if there's a noticeable difference.

 

Microwavegerbil

According to Mobinfo, just about every boss and mob in SSC has between 1% and 4% Nature resistance. Anyone have more info on this? Is mobinfo wrong, would some spell pen actually help here, or what? I'm very curious to know, as I'm trying to figure out if the spell pen cloak enchant might actually be worthwhile to up my dps a bit on these encounters.

 

• Greybone

As far as I can recall, Mobinfo shows erroneous resists on higher level mobs because it doesn't identify level-based resists. Can someone confirm this?

 

Roywyn

Mobs above your level gain resistances to all spell schools resulting in many partial resists. Those cannot be overcome by spell penetration.
Those resists are what mods like Glock showed, I guess MobInfo isn't much different.
It's been said in every other post in this and other threads :'(

On Supremus - that one really looks like some fire resistance on a boss.

He mitigated about 20% of all fire damage taken. That's around 97 fire resistance remaining after Curse of Elements (-88 resists) and talents (-10 resists) and whatever spell penetration they have from gear.
Given that ~25 of this resistance is level-based, you can grab around 70 spell penetration from gear for a ~20% damage increase.

Dalien just won the cake, but I sadly can't deliver to US servers, so this one will have to do

.iiii
(...)

 

Microwavegerbil

Thanks for the info, but I don't see how any of my question was worth getting angry about. I'm fully aware of the resistances caused by lvl difference and the inability of spell penetration to do anything about it. My question was about the info that mobinfo gave me, specifically concerning ssc, and a search of the forums didn't return any info pertaining to this particular concern. Again, thanks, but simmer.

 

daos

If this statement is correct, mobinfo and other mods similar to it like glock should show those same base resistances for every boss.

But it doesnt, the resistances it shows vary across boss by spell school and by % resist shown. How do you explain this?

 

Kirion

How about wrong algorithm in addon or too smal sample size?

42.

 

Darkchani

On our supremus kill i used an adepts+elixir of empowerment, and my Rune of Perfection (yes, the 7stam 20spell pen trinket lvl 40 from WSG)

that got me up to 80 spell penetration, coupled with CoE, i was able to only have 9.7% mitigation on my fireballs, unlike all previous attempts where i was at about 20%. The dps difference between the other fire mages and me was over 100dps, pretty much only due to that.

As an elemental shaman, you dont get CoE. Adding in to that that most shamans have plenty of hp compared to mages and i think Radiant Talasite become valid blue socket gems. The true question is, how much mitigation are you getting on your spells when raiding ? a WWS parse would tell you that. If its above 5%, I would definitly slap radiant talasites. If its always under 5%, might as well get stam...

 

Miaxi

4 spell crit rating is inferior to 5 spell damage in terms of DPS, this is not a matter of "might as well" but a case of "do partial resists cripple me so much in general that I would wear inferior gear because of it?".