[Hunter] Haste Rating Armor making Marks Viable for PvE?
The idea of stacking haste gear to make a marks build compete against a beast build came to mind last night after talking to a friend. I won't lie, I'm horrible at math, and any numbers I use here will most likely have errors somewhere in them.
For a total of 137 Haste Rating, which = 13.03% Haste.
We all know Marks will hit harder than beast, easily. Beast still has a 7% haste lead with Serpents Swiftness vs those 4 pieces of gear. And beast still has a much harder/faster hitting pet.
Here is where I'm stuck, due to being horrible at math. Is the 7% margin in speed, big enough to keep Beast ahead of Marks? There's a ton of factors, probably too many to give a definitive answer, which I don't need. I felt like bringing this up for discussion, because I know many of the hunters on this board play as Beast spec (including myself), and I think these pieces of gear are semi tied into that spec, but can offer going back to marks a chance.
There's a load of factors, and i'm sure it'll benefit MM the most.
But, any time you crit, your pet gains 50 focus. For a BM that would be a large chunk of damage. If you shoot more often (aside running out of arrows faster) you'll give that focus to your pet more often as well.
I think it might tighten the gap a "little",, but i'm skeptical whether it'll actually allow MM to take the lead.
ps: there's also a +Haste meta gem.
Last edited by Zurgat : 06/22/07 at 11:53 AM.
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I don't know if this cloak would be that great compared to other DPS cloaks, but if you're going for a full/deep MM build wanting to stack haste, something to consider. I'm just hoping that I don't have to drop any professions to learn all these as they are very, very good. One thing I'm noticing on the items I linked on BG and the ones you did hear is that there is basically only 4 stats and then haste. Agi, Stam, Int, AP. There is no hit, no crit. I know I wouldn't get 30% crit from these 3-4 items that you can get, how much of a difference would it make?
While using Cheeky's sheet, I computed my potential DPS as MM and BM. BM has about 50 DPS over MM overall and something like 50 DPS under MM for ranged alone. I don't see a great gap.
While using Cheeky's sheet, I computed my potential DPS as MM and BM. BM has about 50 DPS over MM overall and something like 50 DPS under MM for ranged alone. I don't see a great gap.
When you factor in raid buffs on both the Hunter and the pet, the gap in BM's favor grows greater. Plus, BM tends to be much more mana efficient, making it easier to maintain high DPS for a longer period of time.
well, I know my raid, I will be stuck with another hunter and some casters, there's no way the pet will get totems (WF does not even work on them), the pallies will not buff it (they do it cringingly on progression fights, but never routinely), if it dies once it will get no new buffs, it won't get warrior shouts, it will probably have an Imp buff and may have Leader of the pack (but not mark if it died before)
I did factor in full raid buffs, food and elixir for myself
Also to keep in mind, that it's pretty lackingly beneficial for a hunter to be put in the melee group nowadays. (although it's no crime to do so)
Putting the BM hunter in the Shadowpriest's group allows the SP to generate more dps, and in turn generate more mana for the entire caster group.
The hunter also gives all the other casters +3% damage.
Whereas a MM hunter would have 1) problems with mana, and 2) only give a small attack power buff for his own group.
A Survival hunter would give "a bigger" attack power buff for the "entire raid".
In the melee group you usually have at least 1 warrior, which means the shaman in that group will have to use Windfury, this means the hunter doesn't get his much desired +agility totem.
While MM is still a viable spec for plenty reasons, and encounters which are still very pet unfriendly, BM simply is able to produce a lot more damage, and it scales much better with improving gear.
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Plus, BM tends to be much more mana efficient, making it easier to maintain high DPS for a longer period of time.
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but I don't see how BM is any more mana efficient. You will be using Steady Shot at a much faster rate on top of spamming Mend Pet and Kill Commands. A MM hunter will care slightly less about pet survival, and will use pretty much only Multi and maybe Arcanes (I tend to not use Arcane because it's about equal to Steady in terms of damage but with a much higher mana cost. If anything, it would be about equal or more in mana usage to Marks. Mind you, I am not talking about damage alone here, just mana efficiency.
I would guess that the mana efficiency should come from not using Arcane and Multi. I rarely have any mana deficiencies as MM. So that argument has no impact on me. Also I know MM hunters do not benefit the raid. I don't want to spec to benefit the raid, honestly. If I did I'd be playing my priest.
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but I don't see how BM is any more mana efficient. You will be using Steady Shot at a much faster rate on top of spamming Mend Pet and Kill Commands. A MM hunter will care slightly less about pet survival, and will use pretty much only Multi and maybe Arcanes (I tend to not use Arcane because it's about equal to Steady in terms of damage but with a much higher mana cost. If anything, it would be about equal or more in mana usage to Marks. Mind you, I am not talking about damage alone here, just mana efficiency.
The typical max-dps rotation for MM usually involves SS every autoshot cycle with Arcane/Multi whenever they'll fit without pushing back the autoshot and are off cooldown. While BM is going to be casting Steadies a bit over 20% faster than MM, they also won't be casting arcane or multi, which cost more than twice the mana of a single steady. Sure BM will use mend pet a bit more because they actually care about keeping the pet up, but it's not going to be spammed as much as arcane/multi and with points in improved mend will still cost less than either of those two shots.
When you factor in raid buffs on both the Hunter and the pet, the gap in BM's favor grows greater. Plus, BM tends to be much more mana efficient, making it easier to maintain high DPS for a longer period of time.
I produced "same" dps results in your spreadsheet with SV than with BM actually. :/
Gear:
Halberd of Desolation
Archimonde bow
4x t5
Ranger-general
Cobra-lash boots
Coak of dark reavers
Bands of celestial archer
Kael neck, Hyal ring, Magteridon ring, Tsunami, Hourglass
(t5 quality gear, except halberd + bow)
With standard raid buffs on both pet and me, agi elixir and warp burger.
+enh.goa totem. (normal stuf for me)
Target: 73 humanoid, 0armor, affected by CoS/Imp.Mark
0/20/41 spec
47,23% crit, 100%hit
Dps listed: 2356.43 with Max Special rotation
Changing Celestial Archer to Lightning Reflexes nets +3dps. (additional hastes actually start providing lower increase in dps since its no longer possible to do max special rotation effective / or stop increasing it)
-----------------
41/20/0 (with 5/5 imp.hawk)
36.74% crit, 100%hit
Dps: 2396.76 with Max Special rotation, steady at quick shots
Changing Celestial Archer to Lightning Reflexes +25dps.
Biggest difference i could come up BM vs SV with is ~70dps in those conditions.
Its true i used SV gear for both specs, stacked with agi gems.
* So here is challenge, find biggest listed Total DPS using Cheeky spreadsheet. I would like to see what gear/talents/rotation was used and then try to "beat" it / get near it with SV spec.
* Haste gear goes well with imp.hawk and one special per auto.
Since all ranged weapons are 2.9-3.0 speed (80dps+) we could say that haste is good for all with imp.hawk?
Edit:
Um gave target 6000 armor (36.24%). SV goes ahead for 8dps. :/ (1447 BM vs 1555 SV)
Same gear, same buffs.
Also to keep in mind, that it's pretty lackingly beneficial for a hunter to be put in the melee group nowadays. (although it's no crime to do so)
Putting the BM hunter in the Shadowpriest's group allows the SP to generate more dps, and in turn generate more mana for the entire caster group.
The hunter also gives all the other casters +3% damage.
Whereas a MM hunter would have 1) problems with mana, and 2) only give a small attack power buff for his own group.
A Survival hunter would give "a bigger" attack power buff for the "entire raid".
In the melee group you usually have at least 1 warrior, which means the shaman in that group will have to use Windfury, this means the hunter doesn't get his much desired +agility totem.
While MM is still a viable spec for plenty reasons, and encounters which are still very pet unfriendly, BM simply is able to produce a lot more damage, and it scales much better with improving gear.
Lucky for me, all warriors in my guild are Prot, so no rolling on 2H'ers for me as well as less attack power trinket/ring/neckpiece hogs either, etc. Anyhow, I was looking into stacking haste and haste procs for a marksman hunter as well. Doing so can keep their attack speed up long enough to possibly warrant marksman's use. Now one question I have is that if the marksman hunter is going to stack haste, would be be proper to use the TSD metagem? I found its proc to be underwhelming due to its shortness in duration. I was having it proc on one autoshot and not even receiving the benefit of it until 2.52 seconds later, leaving me with 3.48 seconds of haste. I'd rather use Relentless Earthstorm Diamond where I can keep more stats as well as have a multiplicative crit modifier against humanoids, which make up a large portion of endgame content currently. I tested it out, and it turns out that with Mortal Shots, Humanoid Slaying, and the RED, I have a 245.765% crit modifier, meaing that it only takes a 813.7 damage hit in order for that same attack to crit for 2k.
The typical max-dps rotation for MM usually involves SS every autoshot cycle with Arcane/Multi whenever they'll fit without pushing back the autoshot and are off cooldown. While BM is going to be casting Steadies a bit over 20% faster than MM, they also won't be casting arcane or multi, which cost more than twice the mana of a single steady. Sure BM will use mend pet a bit more because they actually care about keeping the pet up, but it's not going to be spammed as much as arcane/multi and with points in improved mend will still cost less than either of those two shots.
MM casts arcane in the same autoshot window as a steady because they can't fit in another steady. If you give an MM hunter a weapon fast enough to where they can only do one special per auto shot, then an MM hunter could replace all those arcane shots with steady. There is no special scaling for arcane shot with MM spec, only the fact that with the weapon speed most MM hunters use, its either arcane shot or no shot at all for that GCD. So an MM hunter could become more mana efficient if they hasted themselves up to BM speeds.
Also, I disagree that MM hunters don't care about keeping their pet up. It may not be as much damage as a BM pet, but it is still nontrivial damage.
I have thought about what the OP was proposing before, and that it might be a pretty good idea. The biggest problem I have with MM is that with most available bow speeds you are stuck with either A) a 1 special / auto rotation with a lot of dead time or B) a 3 specials / 2 auto rotation that is a living hell to execute perfectly.
If I recall correctly haste rating costs the same as combat ratings or agility on items. In that case I see it as a comparison of: MM ranged damage talents vs. BM pet damage talents + 210 agility (or crit rating or whatever). Where serpents swiftness is made up for by 210 haste rating on items.
Um gave target 6000 armor (36.24%). SV goes ahead for 8dps. :/ (1447 BM vs 1555 SV)
Same gear, same buffs.
That's some insane numbers, then again it's top of the line gear and running perfect rotations. However, you said that haste is actually bad for MM/Survival? Wouldn't it be better or even out in the end? I'm talking in practice, not pure theory here. No one is going to run 0 latency+0 human errors an entire encounter.
Also, I disagree that MM hunters don't care about keeping their pet up. It may not be as much damage as a BM pet, but it is still nontrivial damage.
--
If I recall correctly haste rating costs the same as combat ratings or agility on items. In that case I see it as a comparison of: MM ranged damage talents vs. BM pet damage talents + 210 agility (or crit rating or whatever). Where serpents swiftness is made up for by 210 haste rating on items.
I agree with the pet statement, but I said it because it's not our #1 priority. We do not lose damage or extremely beneficial abilities by our pets dying. I'll keep it alive, but I won't stop to rezz it, or go way out of my way to heal it either.
If what you say is true about cost of haste vs agi/crit, etc, then it makes you wonder how things will progress. A BM hunter will be able to take that item with the crit; MM with the haste... In the end, would the stats end up being equal and the abilities keeping BM ahead?
MM casts arcane in the same autoshot window as a steady because they can't fit in another steady. If you give an MM hunter a weapon fast enough to where they can only do one special per auto shot, then an MM hunter could replace all those arcane shots with steady. There is no special scaling for arcane shot with MM spec, only the fact that with the weapon speed most MM hunters use, its either arcane shot or no shot at all for that GCD. So an MM hunter could become more mana efficient if they hasted themselves up to BM speeds.
Also, I disagree that MM hunters don't care about keeping their pet up. It may not be as much damage as a BM pet, but it is still nontrivial damage.
I have thought about what the OP was proposing before, and that it might be a pretty good idea. The biggest problem I have with MM is that with most available bow speeds you are stuck with either A) a 1 special / auto rotation with a lot of dead time or B) a 3 specials / 2 auto rotation that is a living hell to execute perfectly.
If I recall correctly haste rating costs the same as combat ratings or agility on items. In that case I see it as a comparison of: MM ranged damage talents vs. BM pet damage talents + 210 agility (or crit rating or whatever). Where serpents swiftness is made up for by 210 haste rating on items.
I pretty much agree, my post was a response to the people saying that MM doesn't spend more mana than BM at the moment. Sure, we could concoct some gear setups that would give MM enough haste to justify a 1 special/auto rotation just like BM, but in general for current raid gear, the average MM hunter has to use a 3 special/ 2 auto rotation to maximize dps, which means using more mana.
As for the pet thing, I was just taking the extreme cast that a MM doesn't cast Mend Pet once, and yet still comes out of the fight spending more mana than the BM who uses Mend Pet a lot because the pet is a larger percentage of his overall damage. I didn't mean to imply that a pet is completely irrelevant to a MM's damage.
So, with a 3.0 speed weapon and all the haste rating items in the game atm, as well has 1% haste to gloves (that's that last one) BM can still thread 1 steady per auto with less downtime then MM. Gona calc that last one without Serpent Swiftness...
3 / (1.15 * 1.155 * 1.01) = 3 / 1.3415 = 2.236
So, MM shot's may hit harder due to having 10% more AP as well as AP from int (and 5% more damage) But they have .4 seconds more dead time per auto/steady and their pet does significantly less dps (assuming scorpid poison isn't nerfed.) If SP is nerfed then their pet just does a little bit less dps.
As for the pet thing, I was just taking the extreme cast that a MM doesn't cast Mend Pet once, and yet still comes out of the fight spending more mana than the BM who uses Mend Pet a lot because the pet is a larger percentage of his overall damage. I didn't mean to imply that a pet is completely irrelevant to a MM's damage.
I am just trying to make the statement that it can all vary on playstyles I guess. I don't like the 3-2 combo. I'm more of a 1-1 because trying to do a 3-2 you *will* clip autos and obviously burn mana faster than can be restored. PC, server,and Internet latency can put huge holes in to a lot of theory craft. You're also saying that a BM will basically use only Steady when you didn't include KC another huge contender for their damage. I don't want to get too in depth about it though. There's tons of ways to mitigate MP usage via enchants, potions, oils, grouping, etc.
Example is I get groups of Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Rogue, Rogue, me. I don't get Spriests or Resto shamans dropping their mana totem all the time since this enhancement one forgets it :P
That's some insane numbers, then again it's top of the line gear and running perfect rotations. However, you said that haste is actually bad for MM/Survival? Wouldn't it be better or even out in the end? I'm talking in practice, not pure theory here. No one is going to run 0 latency+0 human errors an entire encounter.
Yeah numbers are insane, i know i have theoretical ~1900k dps on 0armor right now.
But reality put me to ~1300dps (Solarian = 0armor, running with wrath, errors, lag) so far.
While we probably wont ever see t5-6 hunter doing that 1500 theoretical dps on 6k armor (or 2400 on 0), we can assume some will get close to some extent.
And here is the trick, that same hunter with that same gear and bufs, with only different talents should do nearly same dps with BM than with SV if theoretical numbers are that close. No matter on errors or latency? Since in both cases he does "same" mistakes with same lag.
It certanlly holds true for me, i "lost" max 50dps on average for going to SV from BM.
With current endgame weapons haste is great dps with 1 special per auto, that is no brainer. With BM i see it perfect tool to close that dead time gap. With SV/MM i don't have that vision sadly.
But problem with this is that with SV i get FAR better/same dps with no hastes but using 2 specials per auto rotation. I know I'm loosing % of auto dps sometimes due clipping right now with 2.52speed, but im overcoming the difference with extra arcane/multi shots. Also im lossing dps due not optimal use of rotation since im usually doing extra stuff. (mark, scorpid, bitch on vent so people are doing "right" things...)
And its costly with mana. Thats sure.
If i suddenly get 15% haste (from haste gear), that means im at 2.19speed and im doing 1 specaial per auto, witch is less dps than 2.52speed+maxspecial. According to spreadsheet.
But it will be easier to do other things since I don't need to watch on multi-arcane cds any longer.
Its wierd and counter em... can't find the word. Working against my logic. (%haste should speed up things and actualy be + not -)
It is +dps for auto, it is +dps for single shot (steady).
But it removes all or large part of multi+arcane damage OR very large part of autoshot dps. (if you would try to do "auto, steady+multi, auto, steady+arcane, auto" with speeds <2.5 at 200ms)
This is how i understand it.
Cheeky can porbably confirm this behavior. Its his spreadsheet im working with
Edit:
If gain is that small for perfect 2specials rotation, wouldn't that make it worse in non-perfect scenario? Since there is higher chance to mess up with faster speeds?
does cheeky's spread sheet include the OP'ness of keeping up a 5 stack buffed SP? I just can't see how any spec can compare to BM if it is a tank and spank fight where you are maintaining 300-400 dps with scorpid poison alone.
With that said, i fully understand your point. As surv/MM atm you can get 3 specials per 2 autos . With haste rating, you cannot get 2 specials since it will create alot of clipping, so you drop to 1 special per auto. However you now have alot of dead time. The comparison is, without haste gear you have 0 dead time but very minor clipping, with haste gear you either choose heavy clipping, or alot of dead time.
I am just trying to make the statement that it can all vary on playstyles I guess. I don't like the 3-2 combo. I'm more of a 1-1 because trying to do a 3-2 you *will* clip autos and obviously burn mana faster than can be restored. PC, server,and Internet latency can put huge holes in to a lot of theory craft. You're also saying that a BM will basically use only Steady when you didn't include KC another huge contender for their damage. I don't want to get too in depth about it though. There's tons of ways to mitigate MP usage via enchants, potions, oils, grouping, etc.
Example is I get groups of Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Rogue, Rogue, me. I don't get Spriests or Resto shamans dropping their mana totem all the time since this enhancement one forgets it :P
Yeah, it definitely is a play style thing, although I think that's one of the big things that holds MM back at the moment. Specifically, as you say you can't reliably do a 3-2 rotation without clipping unless you're on speed with the best internet connection ever, but if you do a 1-1 rotation without Serpent's Swiftness you're leaving a lot of dead time in between which is going to cut down on your dps.
And /facepalm about KC, no caffeine ftl I guess.
Also, you need to get your raid leaders to make a better melee dps group. In our raid we usually put the BM hunter in a group with mage, mage, spriest, elemental shaman, and the melee dps group looks like Rogue, Rogue, DPS Warrior, Enh Shaman, and then either a Feral or another rogue, depending on the makeup and the encounter.
does cheeky's spread sheet include the OP'ness of keeping up a 5 stack buffed SP? I just can't see how any spec can compare to BM if it is a tank and spank fight where you are maintaining 300-400 dps with scorpid poison alone.
No it does not count in 900tick poison, but rather average gain.
That being said, there are bosses where stack is falling down or even can't be used so building value of haste arround scorpid poison doesn't seem smart to me.
There is big posibility in my opinion that scorpid poison will be nerfed like LB was. Since its clearly OP atm.
So, with a 3.0 speed weapon and all the haste rating items in the game atm, as well has 1% haste to gloves (that's that last one) BM can still thread 1 steady per auto with less downtime then MM. Gona calc that last one without Serpent Swiftness...
3 / (1.15 * 1.155 * 1.01) = 3 / 1.3415 = 2.236
So, MM shot's may hit harder due to having 10% more AP as well as AP from int (and 5% more damage) But they have .4 seconds more dead time per auto/steady and their pet does significantly less dps (assuming scorpid poison isn't nerfed.) If SP is nerfed then their pet just does a little bit less dps.
That is assuming a 3.0 weapon. If you look at a 2.6 weapon, then the BM hunter would be firing at 1.615 and the MM hunter at 1.9. If the fastest you can reliably thread shots is 1.9, then the BM hunter wouldn't have any advantage at that weapon speed.
As far as I can tell there is a "speed limit" on how fast you want your autos to fire of 1.5 + L, where L is your lag - the period of time in between when you could fire a steady shot and when you actually fire it. If you go any faster than this, pure steady spamming will slow your autoshots down to this speed.
Choosing to cast a steady shot every other auto shot is a bad idea in my opinion. By doing so you slow your steadies down to half of the new autoshot rate of fire. For example you go from 1 steady, 1 auto every 1.7 seconds, to 1 auto every 1.5 seconds and 1 steady every 3.0 seconds. Since auto and steady do around the same damage (ballpark), you would be be doing 1.7/1.5 + 1.7/3.0 = 1.7 shots per 1.7 seconds, as opposed to 2.0 shots per 1.7 seconds by slowing the autos to 1.7 and casting every auto.
There might be more exotic things you could do under certain hasted conditions, but in all the specific examples I have worked out it is better to simply continue using steady every GCD and let the autoshots be slowed to GCD + lag. This is why I say there is a speed limit. Any haste that takes you faster than that has no effect on your DPS. (Note that I don't think haste can lower your DPS. If you push all the same buttons at the same time as you would've before the haste, the autoshots will fire .5s after any specials. Since the autos were already firing at least .5s after any specials before haste, you haven't lost any DPS by becoming hasted - at worst you are just wasting the haste effect).
Now, most of the higher end bows seem to be 2.9 or 3.0, and certainly if you are getting the items with passive haste rating you are at the higher end, so your point stands. I am still intrigued by the idea of an MM hunter using a fast weapon and haste itemization to do tighter rotations like what BM currently uses.
I am sure they will fix scorpid poison once they figure out what is going on, but I doubt it will be soon (lightning breath was allowed to be by far the best pet ability for quite a while).
In my opinion, the only part that is OP about Scorpid Poison is the refreshing and stacking of the very first tick as opposed to it properly building based on the AP/spell damage at the time of the application.
I hope I'm wrong, but I also see Blizzard nerfing Serpent's Swiftness some day. It is probably the best talent in all of the Hunter trees combined. With the items they're adding to increase haste, I could see a drop from 20% to 15% to make those items more appealing and lessening the gap between the trees. The only other option would be to remove some of their terrible talents (CE) and replace that with something that affects Steady Shot or even another possible haste talent to help increase MM to something more comparable to BM. That or unlink Steady Shot to interrupting Auto shot, (Like rogues melee+SS/Hemo/BS). This would effectively increase mana consumption but a huge portion but... meh.
It seems the new stats they're pushing on to gear is the "Ignores X amount of armor" and "Increases haste rating by X".
I also feel that with Dragon Spine, it's another step in the right direction to close the gap on a what BM is capable of. I believe Blizzard noticed this and is heading in that direction to increase player/raid DPS over just cure stats/ap/crit like it used to be. Even a lot of caster items have spell haste starting from BT and beyond. It seems to be a popular stat now and I don't see it going away.
Personally, I plan on getting a few pieces of the haste gear when possible. I don't know about stacking it to max with all items available, but even a 5-6% increase (1 or 2 items) will be beneficial enough to maybe kill the dead time.
06/22/07, 8:15 AM
and then try to "beat" it / get near it with SV spec. 
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