[Hunter] Haste Rating Armor making Marks Viable for PvE? - Page 2

Zardas · 06/22/07, 2:43 PM

Yes you can stack haste gear and get MM to a point where he can only fire 1 special shot between autoshots. And yes if he has the talents he will be more mana efficent then the BM hunter. And to a point a BM is also getting the beneif from haste gear. Remember haste will also reduce the casting time of steady shot. Of course there will be a point where the hunter is simply firing to fast and his autoshot is delayed by the steady shot. This is something that really bothers me about our class mechanics. Using specials shouldn't lower our dps. Autoshot should fire no matter what your doing as long as:

-autoshot is on
-you aren't moving
-you aren't firing an aim shot (I'll give blizzard this one but you could argue auto should still fire)

Ailee · 06/22/07, 2:59 PM

autoshot is on
-you aren't moving
-you aren't firing an aim shot (I'll give blizzard this one but you could argue auto should still fire)

I pretty much agree with this. Keep Aimed Shot to an almost "On next attack" kind of deal. With a lot of the fights requiring people to be highly mobile (Sorry, my SSC/TK knowledge is limited. I know about most of the fights, but haven't done them), I doubt it could ever be over powered. No one is going to stand still long in PVP either (DOn't want to go far in to this discussion but yeah). There are other fixes I've seen that make great sense. Remove the +Damage on dazed and either equal it out over a couple shots... Or change the dazed to something that CAN be on bosses... Poison for example.

aartamen · 06/22/07, 3:01 PM

How much haste would an MM hunter need to convert to special/auto rotation without losing DPS from the current 3/2 rotation and 2.9 or 3.0 weapon?

Ailee · 06/22/07, 3:13 PM

Hoping I get the math right on this because I never can remember the exact formula...
A weapon with 2.9 speed after quiver runs at 2.4'ish speed. That means Steady shot is theoretically a 1.3 second cast. You have 1.1-1.2 seconds left to do an instant (Arcane/Multi). Then you have the 1.5 GCD which is not changed by haste. This will put you about 0.3'ish seconds behind on the next shot, but again this is assuming 0 lag and a 2.9 (Since most hunters will use Prince bow until Vashj until Archimonde, etc).

Edit:
This is only considering a quiver and 0 haste armor/buffs yet. If I could get the Paladins to judge Wisdom more often, I'd probably use Haste Potions :X

Cheeky · 06/22/07, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sapa

But problem with this is that with SV i get FAR better/same dps with no hastes but using 2 specials per auto rotation. I know I'm loosing % of auto dps sometimes due clipping right now with 2.52speed, but im overcoming the difference with extra arcane/multi shots. Also im lossing dps due not optimal use of rotation since im usually doing extra stuff. (mark, scorpid, bitch on vent so people are doing "right" things...)
And its costly with mana. Thats sure.

If i suddenly get 15% haste (from haste gear), that means im at 2.19speed and im doing 1 specaial per auto, witch is less dps than 2.52speed+maxspecial. According to spreadsheet.
But it will be easier to do other things since I don't need to watch on multi-arcane cds any longer.

Its wierd and counter em... can't find the word. Working against my logic. (%haste should speed up things and actualy be + not -)

It is +dps for auto, it is +dps for single shot (steady).
But it removes all or large part of multi+arcane damage OR very large part of autoshot dps. (if you would try to do "auto, steady+multi, auto, steady+arcane, auto" with speeds <2.5 at 200ms)

This is how i understand it.
Cheeky can porbably confirm this behavior. Its his spreadsheet im working with

Edit:
If gain is that small for perfect 2specials rotation, wouldn't that make it worse in non-perfect scenario? Since there is higher chance to mess up with faster speeds?

I think you have it pretty much spot-on. BM Hunters don't really benefit well from haste unless you have very slow weapons, and MM/Surv Hunters can get pushed to a 1:1 rotation, but not a tight one, causing them to loose the benefit of haste too.

It is definitely counter-intuitive (was that the word?), and also the exact opposite with how other classes view haste effects. We deal damage differently.

Originally Posted by Kiklion

does cheeky's spread sheet include the OP'ness of keeping up a 5 stack buffed SP? I just can't see how any spec can compare to BM if it is a tank and spank fight where you are maintaining 300-400 dps with scorpid poison alone.

I can't assume you pop all your trinkets and Bestial Wrath before the first application. I try (to the best of my modeling ability) to see what a "typical" stack would look like at each level, and then determine how much of the total time is spent on that level. I then put that all together to generate DPS numbers. Even then, Scorpid Poison absolutely destroys the damage any other special attack can do.

In a fight like Gruul, you're going to have periods of time where you stack falls off, regardless of what you try and do. I think what I've done is cleaner than trying to model the uber-stack. I leave that as a exercise to the reader.

Ailee · 06/22/07, 3:50 PM

In a fight like Gruul, you're going to have periods of time where you stack falls off, regardless of what you try and do. I think what I've done is cleaner than trying to model the uber-stack. I leave that as a exercise to the reader.

I think a better fight to use would be Magtheridon. I generally put my scorpid on the 5th add to hopefully get it down a little faster when we get to it on top of it being able to be on Mag for almost the entire fight. There are very few times it every drops off of Mag, the add though, a bit more often before of repositioning, the bouncing once phase 2 starts, and the mob turning a bit and being able to block. However, I'd say it's a better fight since you'd probably lose it on Gruul a bit considering you need to call it out of Cave-ins and the Stone/Shatter will stop it from reapplying. Just a thought.

It is definitely counter-intuitive (was that the word?), and also the exact opposite with how other classes view haste effects. We deal damage differently.

I find this a bit disheartening because of how much an effect haste can actually play if it worked properly.

aartamen · 06/22/07, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ailee

Hoping I get the math right on this because I never can remember the exact formula...
A weapon with 2.9 speed after quiver runs at 2.4'ish speed. That means Steady shot is theoretically a 1.3 second cast. You have 1.1-1.2 seconds left to do an instant (Arcane/Multi). Then you have the 1.5 GCD which is not changed by haste. This will put you about 0.3'ish seconds behind on the next shot, but again this is assuming 0 lag and a 2.9 (Since most hunters will use Prince bow until Vashj until Archimonde, etc).

Edit:
This is only considering a quiver and 0 haste armor/buffs yet. If I could get the Paladins to judge Wisdom more often, I'd probably use Haste Potions :X

Even though that does not answer my question, the answer to it is pretty simple, we need to duplicate the BM's 20% give or take.

Kiklion · 06/22/07, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I can't assume you pop all your trinkets and Bestial Wrath before the first application. I try (to the best of my modeling ability) to see what a "typical" stack would look like at each level, and then determine how much of the total time is spent on that level. I then put that all together to generate DPS numbers. Even then, Scorpid Poison absolutely destroys the damage any other special attack can do.

In a fight like Gruul, you're going to have periods of time where you stack falls off, regardless of what you try and do. I think what I've done is cleaner than trying to model the uber-stack. I leave that as a exercise to the reader.

I thought that pets were immune to shatter and kept the dot up throughout it (been awhile for me) Anyway, wasn't trying to debase you, i know your calc works well, i didn't think it was possible to accurately model the damage from SP.

aartamen · 06/22/07, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kiklion

I thought that pets were immune to shatter and kept the dot up throughout it (been awhile for me) Anyway, wasn't trying to debase you, i know your calc works well, i didn't think it was possible to accurately model the damage from SP.

Pets get stoned and stop DPSing for that period of time.

Ailee · 06/22/07, 4:56 PM

Correct, they get stoned, but they don't stay stoned for 30 seconds now. It is removed when shatter hits, but does no damage to pets. The poison only lasts for 10 seconds (R4) or 8 seconds (R5) and a badly timed Shatter could prevent it from being reapplied in time before falling off.

Aartamen, what I was trying to point out is that if you want to retain a 3-2 cycle with haste gear, you will not be able to do so. It's bad enough that with only a quiver, we're almost clipping shots, so to start adding 2-3% here and there and we will get to the point that 3-2 is really bad and force us to a 1-1. At that point, we'd have to go to a 1-1 cycle or else wreck our DPS.

svengarlic · 06/22/07, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I think you have it pretty much spot-on. BM Hunters don't really benefit well from haste unless you have very slow weapons, and MM/Surv Hunters can get pushed to a 1:1 rotation, but not a tight one, causing them to loose the benefit of haste too.

It is definitely counter-intuitive (was that the word?), and also the exact opposite with how other classes view haste effects. We deal damage differently.

The problem with haste is that it can be either the best thing ever or the most worthless thing ever, depending on your current attack speed. If you have slack in your rotation, then haste will be an amazing buff, because it benefits both your autoshots and your specials. If you have no slack in your rotation, then it won't be worth losing specials for the additional autoshot speed.

If you were a hunter attacking at 2.8 speed (with a suitably slow weapon), it would go from being good, to being worthless, to being good, to being worthless as you stacked more and more haste. I suppose if you stacked enough haste you could get your autoshot speed down under .75, and then it would be worthwhile again. You could do steady/auto/auto and still be in GCD almost constantly.

Kiklion · 06/22/07, 6:09 PM

with a .75 speed you would need a .25 steadyshot in order to go steady/ auto auto due to the.5 second primer. This is more haste then will ever be possible.

svengarlic · 06/22/07, 6:45 PM

You're totally right. I wasn't trying to say anyone could actually do that, just that there is another good rotation that exists if you could stack enough haste.

jurgen · 06/22/07, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kiklion

with a .75 speed you would need a .25 steadyshot in order to go steady/ auto auto due to the.5 second primer. This is more haste then will ever be possible.

Disclaimer: this isn't exactly a meaningful contribution to the discussion. Just wanted to say for the record, for about 6 seconds, with maxed zerking, skyfire swiftness, quick shots, rapid fire, and haste (dspine proc), I got my glad xbow (3.1 speed) to fire at ~.6

Edit: Once in a lifetime, I know.

Kiklion · 06/22/07, 8:44 PM

3.1 / (x) = .6

3.1 / .6 = 5.16

maxed zerking(30%), skyfire swiftness (240 / 10.51 = 22.8353%), quick shots (15%), rapid fire (40%), and haste (30.9229%)(dspine proc), I got my glad xbow (3.1 speed) to fire at ~.6
lets assume 15% quiver and 20% SS.

1.2 * 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.228353 * 1.15 * 1.4 * 1.309229 = 4.645

4.645 * x = 5.16

5.16 / 4.645 = 1.11087

I'm missing 11% haste somewhere. But uh, let's ignore that and assume that the 3.1 Xbow shot at .6 speed. This means total haste effects = 516% haste.

1.5 / 5.16 = .2906 + .5 primer.... CLIPPING AUTO SHOTS!

jurgen · 06/22/07, 8:46 PM

The 11% you missed is because zerking is bugged. At max it provides over 40% haste, shoulda said that earlier, sorry.

Lactose · 06/23/07, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kiklion

3.1 / (x) = .6

3.1 / .6 = 5.16

maxed zerking(30%), skyfire swiftness (240 / 10.51 = 22.8353%), quick shots (15%), rapid fire (40%), and haste (30.9229%)(dspine proc), I got my glad xbow (3.1 speed) to fire at ~.6
lets assume 15% quiver and 20% SS.

1.2 * 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.228353 * 1.15 * 1.4 * 1.309229 = 4.645

4.645 * x = 5.16

5.16 / 4.645 = 1.11087

I'm missing 11% haste somewhere. But uh, let's ignore that and assume that the 3.1 Xbow shot at .6 speed. This means total haste effects = 516% haste.

1.5 / 5.16 = .2906 + .5 primer.... CLIPPING AUTO SHOTS!

HastedSpeed = 3.1/(1.20*1.15*1.228353*1.15*1.4*1.309229*1.42857)
HastedSpeed = 0.61

1.42857 being Berserking, due to it working like this:
HastedSpeed = WeaponSpeed*0.7 -- which can be converted to
HastedSpeed = WeaponSpeed/(1/0.7)
HastedSpeed = WeaponSpeed/1.42857

Kiklion · 06/23/07, 10:16 AM

Is that the only haste effect that works that way?

Lactose · 06/23/07, 11:50 AM

As far as I know, yes.

svengarlic · 06/23/07, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kiklion

1.5 / 5.16 = .2906 + .5 primer.... CLIPPING AUTO SHOTS!

So? Clipping .6 second autoshots to be .8 second autshots is still better than firing unclipped autshots every 2.2 seconds for the same damage.

Brise · 08/14/07, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by aartamen

well, I know my raid, I will be stuck with another hunter and some casters, there's no way the pet will get totems (WF does not even work on them), the pallies will not buff it (they do it cringingly on progression fights, but never routinely), if it dies once it will get no new buffs, it won't get warrior shouts, it will probably have an Imp buff and may have Leader of the pack (but not mark if it died before)

I did factor in full raid buffs, food and elixir for myself

I have found that bringing reagents to raids vastly improves the chances that pallies with buff your pet btw (bit off topic but thought it was worth mentioning) =)

Republica · 08/14/07, 12:35 AM

I don't see why so many hunters are ok with our auto attack having a .5 sec. cast time or a requirement of being stationary. What other physical attack class requires you to remain stationary for white damage?

Just get rid of the .5 second hidden cast and let us auto shoot while moving. Problem solved.