My guild has just recently put Gruul on farm status with our second consecutive kill, and started working on Magtheridon. In our Gruul kills, when I use consumables (Bluefish,Elixir of Shadow Power, Elixir of Draneic Wisdom and Superior Wizard Oil) I can push approximately 550-600 DPS according to FuBar_DPS.
Does this seem about right for where my gear is? I generally avoid using Mind Blast and/or SW too prevalently in order to preserve mana efficiency, and avoid pulling aggro. So, I simply keep VT/SW:P up at all times, and Mind Flay whenever I'm not restoring one of them. If I've got some breathing room threat/mana-wise, I will throw in a MB/SW combo to push it a bit, especially toward the latter end of the right when Gruul's getting up there in growths.
Any suggestions on how I can improve my DPS? Or am I where I should be DPS-wise. I've seen some staggering numbers like 900+ DPS coming from a Shadowpriest with 1400 or so +damage. Is our damage scaling really that staggering with +damage?
It's generally frowned upon to start a new thread for this type of stuff. You can find more information at the above site to have a better idea of the type of dps you can expect.
The short answer is that you should be doing a lot more, even at your gear level. As well, your hesitation about mb/swd is misplaced. While clearly there are long fights in which it is prudent to conserve your mana, they are the exceptions, not the rule.
It's generally frowned upon to start a new thread for this type of stuff. You can find more information at the above site to have a better idea of the type of dps you can expect.
While i agree with this in general, his question is still a very valid one.
One thing is certain about TBC: Class matters less for who tops damagemeters. While some classes can't really do it, some other classes are constantly surprising. Im constantly seeing different classes topping, Warlock, Shadowpriests, Rogues, Hunters, Mages, even feral or balance druids with the right gear have been known to out DPS the pure classes and take the top spot. The only classes i don't see topping damagemeters is fury warriors, ret paladins and enhancement/elemental shammies. Somehow i believe that the fury warriors never really defeated the flurry nerf and rage normalisation, even with Windfury enough to top rogues, though im sure exceptions exists. Ret paladins got buffed as well and can approximately output the same DPS as a 2h warrior, while providing enough group utility (3% crit to the entire raid ain't pepper nuts) to, IMO, potentially justify a raid spot for the blessings (that most want to see them healing is another matter of course).
Now, to answer the OP's question in my own way: What exact DPS number you should be putting out is something i will leave to the theorycrafting shadowpriests to tell you. However, giving you a relative value: If you are doing approx 85-95% of the DPS of your top DPS'er, then id say its on right track, assuming he is pumping out his best and has top notch gear.
I would recommend you start using Mind Blast and SW:D a bit to raise your DPS. Higher DPS output is also higher mana regen for your party, and since you potentially can die early in a fight, mana not spent on DPS is mana wasted.
I've topped meters before as Elemental, on both of my guild's Lurker kills. However, that is admittedly a somewhat biased situation - Mages and warlocks are hurt by the submerge, forcing them to spend more time ramping up DPS, I'm uncapped on threat, and I'm assigned to DPSing down a pair of Ambushers (40k HP) alongside a warlock (meaning I likely get the lion's share of the HP), while the mages have to be on sheep duty.
Those were my brief, and highly situational moments of Glory, but Glory none the less.
There are a lot of factors that could impact your DPS based on raid composition/grouping such as whether you have Curse of Shadow/Improved Shadow Bolt up from warlocks or whether you get Wrath of Air totem from a shaman. Aside from that, you could look at the following to improve:
1) Gear
You should be stacking damage, and should be at the hit cap (76 spell hit rating with 5/5 shadow focus). It looks like you could get your bracers, weapon and gloves enchanted with additional spell damage. Also, Xi'ri's Gift should be replaced with a spell damage trinket if possible. It looks like you have equipped your PvP trinket so I don't know what your second trinket is. For the gems in Khadgar's Kilt, it would be better to put in a Potent Flame Spessarite/Potent Noble Topaz instead of the Brilliant Dawnstone and still get to keep the set bonus. If you can finish the Lower City rep grind you can get a better weapon.
2) Consumables
What you are using sounds fine, though I would consider using a Flask of Supreme Power over that combination. If you want to stick with the Elixir of Shadow Power I think Elixir of Major Mageblood or Mageblood Potion would be better than Elixir of Draenic Wisdom for mana regen.
3) Spell rotation
shadowpriest.com has lots of info about good spell rotations, and you can also try out the DPS spreadsheet there as well. What I found personally with my gear was that using Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death increased my DPS by over 80 with my current gear. Good timing of mana potions and Shadowfiend will ease any mana problems by using both. For example, on Magtheridon I use the Shadowfiend on the 3rd add, and start using potions when Magtheridon is unleashed.
any fight that is going to have a duration of more then 5 minutes, use the shadowfied as soon as your mana is low enough for the fiend to fill it to full. It is a larger boost than a potion, so you want to get as many uses out of it as possible.
2 uses of shadowfiend can be a big deal in some fights.
I don't think going to shadowpriest.com is necessarily going to get you an accurate answer regarding dps. Like others have said, there are many things to take into account. Also, there are egos. I think quite a few people will exaggerate their dps to make themselves look good.
Personally, I know that I am atleast decent considering I almost always top dps on fights up to 5/6 SSC 1/6 TKE. 700-900 dps is fairly *typical* for me according to swstats. This is with 1200-1350 shadowdmg.
I often hear of others getting in the 1ks as high as maybe 1400 dps. That sounds pretty incredible to me. I honestly didn't know caster dps was that difficult... On some fights I know there are ways I could increase dps but, on most fights, I say, "well, I kept up my dots, I was consistently casting MB, SWD, and DP on cooldown.."
IMO, you know you "deserve" your spot in the raid if you kept VT and/or VE up while putting out top 10 dps... depending on the fight. If you are pushing the threat line, you are doing all you can. If your threat is high because you had to keep up VE, fine, your dps may be lower, but a smart raid leader will know this. Anyway, back to questions..
Gear: Get your rep up with scryers and put on the exalted shoulder inscription instead of that regen. Rest has been said.
Talents: Get rid of mental agility and absolution and put those into shadowpower. I'd also get rid of up to silence and put those points into shadow power then 1 into imp MB.
Rotation: This depends on your mana during a fight. For me, chugging super mana pots and using 1-3 shadowfiends keeps my mana up for a fairly heavy cycle. I tend to use everything as close to coming off cooldown as possible with mind flay in between while keeping up dots.
I also use a /stopcasting macro for my spells and supercast.
I always look for shadow priests on the healing meters - good way to point out who your REALLY useless healers are ;p
Not to mention on netherspite a shadow priest can easily top the healing meters even if you have uber healers.
I often hear of others getting in the 1ks as high as maybe 1400 dps. That sounds pretty incredible to me. I honestly didn't know caster dps was that difficult... On some fights I know there are ways I could increase dps but, on most fights, I say, "well, I kept up my dots, I was consistently casting MB, SWD, and DP on cooldown.."
There's a certain amount of your DPS output that you're responsible for (gear/gem selection, cast sequence, presence), and there's a certain amount your raid leader is responsible for. There's a world of difference between maxing out self-sustained DPS and things like the propellerheads in your guild getting together and saying "now if we stack four spellsurges in the SP group, make sure he has totems, and toss him two innervates, will his increased dmg yield enough mana from VT to make that better than someone else getting those buffs?" Some of the obscenely high numbers people are claiming (and 1400 DPS does sound obscene) could be the result of a raidwide effort to jack that one person's numbers (for whatever reason...probably a perceived benefit from VT). Or, like you said, it could just as easily be someone stroking his own...erm...ego.
To take it back to the OP...
Your mana spent per (pick a unit of time) is determined by your cast sequence (unless you've got funky haste gear on). As your gear gets better, you'll be returning more mana from VT, so you can sustain a more and more demanding cast sequence (i.e. more MB, more SW:D). This is why SP scaling with +dmg is so "staggering" as you called it...the better the gear, the hotter and longer you can burn in addition to the spells individually hitting harder.
edit:
disabled smileys, although the idea of Shadow Word: Smiley Face does amuse me
Given a perfect gameplay in your part, your dps will vary greatly depending on who you are grouping with. The one end is having no locks and be in an all mage group. That's your minimum dps. You maximum is in a raid where you are in a group with 4 BM hunters, with 2 affliction locks with reasonably high crit chance and the one that puts CoS has malediction.
The difference between the two scenarios is huge. CoS (malediction) is 13% more dmg, 4 BM hunters is 12% and with 2 affliction locks with 25% crit each you get about 64% uptime of Imp. Shadowbolt. The latter comes down to another 13% or so iirc from the last threat I was reading on the subject. So in total you are looking at a 38% difference between the min and max cases of your dps.
Given the range between min and max cases, it is very hard to say if your dps is good or not. In order to give you a data point, with similar gear I managed to get 800 dps with 2 BM hunters in my group and without CoS and without Imp. Shadowbolt (only 1 firelock in the raid, and he was assigned to put CoE). Does this help?
Thank you for all of the well-thought-out responses. Just to answer a few of the questions/assumptions that are being made:
I'm often in the top 5 DPS in the raid, and almost always in the top 10. I'm usually the only shadowpriest in the raid, and our healers are still fairly lacking in gear, so I'm almost always with 4 healers in my group. I never get any totems, bloodlust, or oomkin aura.
I think I need to break down and farm myself some more potions. I tent to be somewhat stingy with them, and I think that's one of my biggest downfalls.
As a side note, I've upgraded quite a bit of my gear since my original post. Prince still won't drop that stupid dagger. >_<
I'm going to talk to my healers, and look at their mana at the end of fights, and see if it may be more beneficial to have me in a dps group, to allow them to burn through their mana a bit more and push their dps, while also increasing mine.
Our guild usually runs with 2 shadow priests per raid, one in the "powerhouse" caster/BM hunter group and the other with healers. If it's just the one shadow priest like you mention, it's a delicate balance to really determine which group you should be placed. If anything, just ask to be placed in a powerhouse group to see how much quicker your raid can down the boss. Try to get at least one BM hunter in your group for ferocious inspiration (and he'll love you for the VE heals to his pet).
*Edit* I also see you're a tailor, and don't quite have the spellstrike 2-piece. This is definitely something you want to farm towards that will increase your DPS quite a bit (along with giving you more +spell hit). General rule of thumb is to go with straight +9 spell damage living rubies for all sockets. If you also have the honor, get the +12 spell damage gem and put it in your FSW boots.
Last edited by Dyslexicmonkey : 07/05/07 at 3:03 PM.
Yeah you probably should be doing some more dmg, don't be too stingy with those MB/SWD, with mana pots you'll climb DPS dramatically.
Also, you're over the hit cap of 16% by a fair bit (someone correct me if i'm wrong please), so dropping some hit for other things would be nice, like the spell hit rating gems you've got, swap them for some +9 gems, it's free dmg!
You're right about your weapon, it's the main thing holding you back, get a new caster dagger with soulfrost on it and you'll notice a huge increase.
All of these things and their reasoning behind it are covered in much more detail by people much better than me at Shadowpriest.com, it's a great resource for PVE inclined Spriests.
The one misconception about SP's is that there is a "rotation". Unlike, mages (who I believe do scorchx3 then fireballx4, or something to that extent), we have to "wing it" for a lack of a better term. Our dots, timers and cooldowns don't sync up well enough to give you a definite cycle of spells.
However, what we do have is a list of priorities in our spells. This'll become easier as you do damage more and become more familiar with what you can do at what instant.
Basically my priority of spells is:
VT-SWP-MB-SWD-MF-VE (for fights where aoe dmg is minimal).
Meaning I always try and keep up VT, then SWP. If those are both up with reasonable time for other things to do, I mindblast and swd and lastly if all dots are on and both mb and swd are on cooldown, I use mindflay.
A drawback is that the tank has to be generating at least 1k TPS to stay ahead of you. Also this hurts mana a lot. So pot early and everytime as it won't make you hit above 100%.
While there's no rotation, with 1/5 imp MB (don't see much point for more) your spells all cast in 1.5s intervals, meaning other than mind flay spells generally don't come out of cooldown except for during MF which means you'll waste 1.5s tops. Just use your spells by priority whenever they're up and make sure you always know what's the next spell you're going to cast before the time comes to actaully cast it to reduce your idle time cased by the "spell finished casting - what do I cast now? hmm..." situation. Even if it takes you 0.3s to figure it out it's a lot of DPS lost.
I would actually recommend getting 4/5 Imp MB or even 5/5 if you have very low latency. I usually run at about 100ms and having 4/5 Imp MB really helps my rotation flow nicely.
This is what I open with
VT SWP VE MB SWD MF MB VT....I then start using the priority system as Mackabre talked about but I find that I go through this general rotation a lot throughout the fight.
One thing that is also worth mentioning is to not cast MB or SWD if VT is not up or if it will run out before then land on the target. This will hurt your mana pool and paying attention to this has really helped my dps.
Edit - I just started browsing these boards and I don't see very many signatures. Are they frowned upon?
Your mana spent per (pick a unit of time) is determined by your cast sequence (unless you've got funky haste gear on). As your gear gets better, you'll be returning more mana from VT, so you can sustain a more and more demanding cast sequence (i.e. more MB, more SW). This is why SP scaling with +dmg is so "staggering" as you called it...the better the gear, the hotter and longer you can burn in addition to the spells individually hitting harder.
Pretty much sums up why you arn't hitting the numbers you expect right now. Shadowpriests are quite consumable unfriendly really, you will be using mana-pots on cooldown - and even at +1500 raidbuffed I'm chain-chugging Dark Runes & Supers to keep going full tilt.
The main modifications to your performance are unfortunately out of your control, of course. Is the warlock with Malediction missing tonight? Do you have access to mana-tide? Are you using TA instead of WoA? Are you running with a BM hunter to give you Ferocious Inspiration? Are you constantly having to move out of range of your Mana-Spring totem? Does the fight threat-cap you too early?
As has been said in earlier posts, you can't improve much of this unless you talk group stacking through with your RL. What you can improve yourself is mainly gear, your willingness to use consumables & understanding how best to make use of your mana. A lot of this can be found on shadowpriest.com, however ultimately the biggest immediate change to your dps will be the 100mp5 gained from chain-chugging supers.
Also use Shadowfiend at appropriate times. Don't use it...
Hydross: At phase transitions or when full Shadow Weaving/Misery/Curse of Shadows aren't up
Lurker: Just before he whirls, spouts, or submerges
Tidewalker: Just before an Earthquake
Fathom Lord: Meh, I just use it on the shaman or priest, never tested whether Spitfire/Waterbolt Volley/Tidal Surge affect it
Void Reaver: Just before a pounding
You can get 6-7k mana back from a well used (and lucky) Shadowfiend, which can save you some mana potions.
Just to add some insights on the shadowfiend: it has something like a 75% dodge rate. This means that if you can time it between melee AoE effects that would normally take it out, you can usually have it last the full duration unless it gets caught in magical AoE.
For instance: On Lurker, the best time to use a shadowfiend is right after he whirls when re-emerging. Shadowfiend will most likely last its entire duration because of the insane dodge rate.
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
It actually has high magic resist as well, but I prefer not to flip a coin in regards to my pet.
Incidentally, I used it right after a whirl as well. Note that you should wait a second after he spins, though, since the whirl effect is delayed until he stops spinning again, I believe.
06/22/07, 10:09 AM
too prevalently in order to preserve mana efficiency, and avoid pulling aggro. So, I simply keep VT/SW:P up at all times, and Mind Flay whenever I'm not restoring one of them. If I've got some breathing room threat/mana-wise, I will throw in a MB/SW
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