Shiorin

Given <136 hit rating, is there a (relatively) easy way to relate crit power to hit rating?

I realize this is a "complicated" question requiring modelling of a combat system we don't have the source for. My question is which is superior, Lightwarden's Band(+18 agi, +38 ap), or the Ring of Shadow Deeps (+13 hr, +21 crit, +24 ap) for me right now.

Based on just the crit and ap the band is 0.5% better, but since I'm still under the magical never-miss level, I assume the hit rating picks up some of that.. the question is.. enough to favor wearing it?

 

Enova

Normally, i'd advise reaching the HR cap as absolute priority, but it also depends on what forseeable upgrades you plan on getting in the near future, and on your spec. You don't have a link to your profile, and the armory is currently taking me ages to refresh, so i'd suggest getting
Lightwarden only if you're survival (as survival benefits more from stacking agility and using the surefooted talent you also lower your HR cap to 80) or if your HR is more than 120.

 

Serpica

I'd say go for the Slayer's Mark of Redemption. It's a quest reward and it's 15 agi, 50 ap, and 10 hit.

 

Trohck

I always strive to be very close to the hit.

There was an analysis done by Glaurong in one of the large hunter threads. It went something like this:

15.8 hit rating = 1% hit
22.1 crit rating = 1% crit

Assume you fire 100 shots, doing 100 damage per shot. The numbers don't matter since they'll scale the same regardless. Picking some arbitrary values let's say you miss 5% and crit 25%. Your damage will be
5 * 0 = 0 from misses
70 * 100 = 7,000 from hits
25 * 200 = 5,000 from crits (or 25*233 = 5825 for mortal shots+slaying)
Total damage 12,000 or 12,825 with crit talents.

Adding 1% hit gives you:
4 * 0 = 0 from misses
71 * 100 = 7,100 from hits
25 * 200 = 5,000 from crits or 5,825 mortal/slay
Total damage 12,100 or 12,925

Adding 1% crit gives you:
5 * 0 = 0 from misses
69 * 100 = 6,900 from hits
26 * 200 = 5,200 from crits or 6058 mortal/slay
Total damage 12100 or 12958

So without mortal shots and slaying, you get the same damage boost from each for 1%. But crit rating takes more than hit rating to equal 1%. The ratio is 22.1/15.8 = 1.399. Add in mortal shots and slaying and 1% hit gives you 99.745% the damage of 1% crit. So 22.1 / 15.7 * .99745 = 1.395.

So 1 hit rating is worth ~1.4 crit rating.

What this doesn't account for is the side benefits of crits. Go For the Throat, Thrill of the Hunt, Relentless Earthstorm Diamond all favor crit. Probably not more than 29% though, which is what would be needed to overtake hit, point for point.

Considering that and the fact that not missing is important for consistency when using Misdirection or kiting, my personal estimation on the value of hit vs. crit would be:

1 hit rating is equal to 1.2 crit rating.

 

jurgen

Shiorin, I've been meaning to ask you something since you posted your spreadsheet on the WoW forums several weeks ago. Why does your model value crit so highly? My values from a few weeks ago when i was raiding as BM were as follows:

crit bonus 30.0%
base crit 22.4%
base rap 1814

Ammo 32
Scope 0
Low 716
High 823
Speed 3.1
Speed w/haste 2.25

and, given those inputs, it takes me 12 AP to roughly equal the dmg output of 4 CR. Am I missing something? Groggan's spreadsheet has AP exceeding the benefits of CR rating by a fair margin, much better than your spreadsheet does, and I was hoping you could explain the disparity.

edit: as

 

Shiorin

Excellent analysis, and thank you for such a succinct presentation. As for the Slayer's Mark alluded to by the other poster, thats my current other ring that I am not considering replacing

 

Shiorin

So you are wielding a 16" gun from an Iowa class Battleship?

If those are the numbers you used then thats the reason, your damage is so high from the gun that crit% hugely dominates the model, and it correctly predicts that small gains in crit unders such conditions would be superior to larger rap gains.

You need to use the damage values from the item description in the high and low.

 

jurgen

Haha, I'm not BM anymore so I'm not sure what the appropriate numbers should be. Thanks for the reply!

 

Trohck

Credit goes to Glaurong, I'm just rehashing from memory what he posted weeks ago, and adding my own comments.

 

Cranch

A few points.

If you're a dwarf and wielding a gun, your gun skill adds to your effective to-hit. Now exactly how much is not provably clear to me. I can say that with a 96 to-hit, I have never missed in about 25 hours of Karazhan raids and many K bosses, as measured with WWS and confirmed with recap.

So, the to-hit you may need for perfection does seem less than what has been reported in the past (around 134 or so, as I recall.)

If you are under the to-hit cap, then what Cheeky's spreadsheet showed, for my gear, was that 1 crit rating = 0.684 dps and 1 hit rating = 1.239 dps. So 1 hit rating was worth 1.81 crit rating.

The currently best way to do this kind of analysis is to use Cheeky's or an equivalent spreadsheet, as they model all sorts of things you might forget about.

 

Ishmaael

I am fairly sure that everyone, no matter of there hit rating, has a minute chance to miss built into the game (blue post from somewhere pops into mind, was quite a while though i doubt they would have changed this). The question of what is better, hit rating or crit rating (in equal or near-to amounts) is fairly complex. Assuming every hunter had mortal shots, gftt and that the game does rely on a single roll system (ie. a crit cannot miss, there-bye making 1% hit not equal to 1% overall dps) i actually lean more towards crit. I take hit wherever possible on items that i dont lose overly much ap/crit for, but i never gem for hit and look at an equal or near-equal number of crit on an item to my current gears hit as an upgrade.

 

Trohck

Please explain why you feel this way given the math posted above contradicts it. Also, please explain how the roll system impacts your decision comparing crit rating, not %.

 

Trifle

Try a Kaylaan's Signet then. Exact same stats, also a quest reward >:

 

Ishmaael

My information may be out-dated and is probably lacking but ill attempt to explain it as well as i can.

Every time you attack there is an internal roll done in-game which determines whether it will hit, miss or crit. It looks something like thus: 1-5 miss 6-70 hit 71-100 crit, meaning that no amount of hit % will ever result in any more crits over any amount of time. this affects my choice of crit rating over hit rating in that while hit gives higher percent per rating, i feel each percent of hit, being less than a 1% dps increase (as apposed to a 1.3% dps increase with gftt and other proc benefits like hourglass) makes the increase ilvl cost of crit rating still a better choice.

Thats far from the in-depth analytical explanation you are after but i believe the basis is correct, that a critical hit will both give alot more bonus than an extra hit, and that even if it wont be as large a number of increase crit for the same amount of stat on the item, crits other benefits like gftt and other procs still make it the desired choice. this is assuming your not a survival hunter.

 

• Glaurong

As Trokck already (re)said. The basic flat math says hit has a 40% edge in the item budget. If you factor in other things that edge is diminished. Lower than a certain percentage of crit I do think it equals or surpasses that 40% but that is subjective and depends greatly on build.

However, even these numbers are misleading. The fact of the matter is you also have to take how item budget allocation weighs into all of this. Items that have one stat stacked on them are almost always inferior to their counterparts with stats spread out. A good example is.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32266 - Ring of Deceitful Intent

+21 Agility
+42 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 19.
Equip: Increases attack power by 58.

For the same item budget you could create an item:

+21 Agility
+32 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 21
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21
Equip: Increases attack power by 42

If you took this same approach to all of your items (perhaps weighted a tad less towards hit so in a full set you would sit at the cap) you would do vastly more DPS than trying to stack stats on individual items.

So yeah, go with Kaylaan's Signet and Slayer's Mark of Redemption. I wore that set for a long time and only recently swapped in the Kara rep ring because I was dangerously low on stamina (7k buffed).

And yes, I got tired of my mage and came back to my hunter. I gripe and bitch but this stupid class grabbed me back in beta and hasn't let go. Mage never made it past 53 =(

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

• Glaurong

1) Not to be a dick but this really isn't the forum where this kind of stuff slides. If you are going to make statements, you need to be able to back them up, or qualify them as subjective and not try to counter someone who has presented evidence.

2) Capitalize. Edit: I withdraw the capitalize comment. I see you just missed it once. It just jumped out at me.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

Arcazua

Lets say you have a non-crit non-miss DPS of D.

1% hit will add 1% of D to your end damage. It takes 15 hit rating to get here, so it will add 1/15% damage per rating point.

1% crit will add 1.3% of D to your end damage with Mortal Shots. It takes 22 hit rating to get here, so it will add 1.3/22% damage per rating point.

1/15 = .0666
1.3/22 = .0591


So it's slightly better to get hit rating than crit rating. However, as has been pointed out, hit rating is cheaper in itemization, so yeah...what Glaurong said.

 

Ishmaael

Well, i will admit that its fairly biased and lacks numerical substantiation but i feel their is so many factors to be weighed in that it's neigh impossible to give you a "x=3.413 y=3.414 therefore". I simply look at it from the point of view that hit gives you 1 thing, the chance to hit a raid boss, crit however gives you a plethora of possibilities, ranging from the chance to crit, to chance on crit procs and spec options. I definitely agree it depends on how much crit you are at though, as while its not strictly capped like hit, its effective dmg will vary according to how high it already is. And i checked my post for all capitalizations per your request

 

Cheeky

Actually you can account for all the effects of crit in regards to procs, GftT, etc. It just takes a bit more effort than going with a gut feeling.

Using the DPS spreadsheet I know that 1 Hit Rating gives me .54 DPS (if I swap an item or two to get under the hit cap) and 1 Crit Rating gives me .56 DPS. So for this specific set of gear/Talents/Pet I am better off with 1 CR than 1 HR.

Also, while you may have checked for capitalization, the word I, referring to yourself, is always capitalized. You seem to have conflicting views on this.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Ishmaael

It is my version of office, seems to have affected my browsers ability to auto-capitalise all singular "i's" and i personally am not a stickler for grammar as it has little meaning to me, but I try to do my best because of how strict the forum admins are with the banhammer. It also makes my posts more legible for those that are used to such.

Thanks for all of your great work cheeky, but in this case doing the tedious work to validate my view of DR vs HR, I didn't have the time to even begin to contemplate the actual workings of my theory as I was supposed to be concentrating on my raid at the time i wrote my above posts.

Honestly HR and CR are very similar in stat value for most specs, but HR gets capped. Also with most gear sets post-ssc people will be looking at being close or at the hit cap purely from 2 decent rings, the helm enchant and the various pve item's one picks up, and i dislike the idea of regemming an older item simply to cater for a change in gear (such as picking up a ring of lethality and finding yourself capped all of a sudden).

 

Amok2007

I look at it this way: You can't crit if you can't hit. This is why I see hit rating to be far more important than crit rating.

 

◊ Shalas

That isn't how the combat system works, and even if it was that would have absolutly nothing to do with the relative value of hit and crit rating.

 

Reipin Pillage

Jurgen,

The numbers are the same no matter what class or spec you are. It's the high and low of the damage range of the weapon itself.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30105
i.e. Low: 214 High: 321

At least that's what I believe he means

 

Groggan

Seems that it might be beneficial for me to add changes in hit rating to my mini-sheet...shouldn't be too hard I think. How many hit rating does it take to gain 1%hit at 70?