[Warrior] Threat generation as an OT (Gruul/VR/etc)
None of the other threads seemed like an ideal place for this discussion so here goes.
What's the best way to build threat as an OT on fights like Void Reaver, Gruul, and other similar encounters? Just from reading other posts in the 'hybrids' thread, it seems like there is quite a bit of disagreement as to what method is best. It doesn't seem like any of the threat sheets really cover low rage situations such as this.
Assuming you need to wear full tank gear, so you have lowish hit, ap, etc. I'd be really intersted to see any data that people have on TPS for the various possible cycles/gear configurations.
Is there anything that can model
* 1h +shield Shield Slam /devastate cycle
* DW devastate cycle (or sunder if you're not protection spec'd)
* 2h + sunder
And HS can be used or not used in all of those. Most people would say you should never use HS in low-rage situations, but the following quote is what inspired me to start this thread:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker
I've often wondered / marveled at the TPS cycles warriors use on Void Reaver.
You can easily achieve 1500+ TPS using nothing but heroic strike and sunder, stopping only to berserker rage poundings. A 1 hander and a shield is hardly ever optimum for OT threat generation.
EDIT: Using Shield Slam seems intuitively best, but I've certainly never put out anywhere near 1500 TPS as on OT using a shield and Gladiator 1h. So I'd be particularly interested in any details about this claim. Plus, sometimes you will a have a non-prot OT who won't have shield slam available.
I dont have anything to offer in terms of a cycle.
But I dont think either is really a low rage situation.
Gruul is trickier, but just eat cave ins and/or turn your back to him during early HSs and you will have plenty of rage.
VR, eating the pounding gives you a lot of rage and we have never had a problem with a 3 tank rotation and have done it once with a 2 tank after the first guy died about instantly on the pull.
the threat to rage on SS makes it really a fantastic option, so much so that i'de take it over dual wielding any day. Your off hand is going to miss a ton anyway, maybe just throw on your slow high dps one hadner and go sword and board.
Purely anecdotal, but I've found that I can dish out a lot more threat in an OT situation dual wielding and devastate spamming (HS tossed in when rage allows). You of course need to be on the ball with equipping your shield if VR turns to you, or the growths start stacking up on Gruul.
Regardless of the instance, there are lots of times when a warrior offtank can be rage starved but still needing to maintain good threat. First off, I ALWAYS have a stack of Great or Mighty Rage potions that I will use liberally due to the fact that i will likely not need my health potions anyways. Second, if i know that this is a fight where I will be in this situation I will sub out some gear in favour of + hit gear to ensure i'm getting maximum hits out of my attacks. Usually this can be achieved with a sacrifice of a few hundred HP.
As for attacks, I would definately avoid HS and stick to sunders, devastates and Sheild Slams.
I don't think there's some magic way other then using your rage wisely and trying to eat a bit of damage when possible.
First off, I should note that my gear set and weapon are above average for what an OT would have. My spec is also unique, in that I personally think that more than 1 pure prot warrior in a raid is a waste of space. All my threat cycles are done using a 34/5/22 spec, or a 0/31/30 spec.
In all situations I have Windfury, and in both I don't wear pure mitigation gear. I use a Band of Devastation, a Dragonspine Trophy, and make sure my hit is 6%+. My tank gear is stock other than that. I always use Bloodmoon, it isn't possible to maintain the hit needed for dual wield while still wearing tank gear.
In the 1500+ TPS cycle I used I didn't really do anything out of the ordinary except for
1. Used Death Wish after every knockback to get back on top
2. Used Recklessness/Death Wish after a double KB during a Bloodlust, after using Reck I switched back to Defensive Stance
3. used Zerk Rage every 30 seconds, non stop, only before poundings
Intervene, 1H/Shield, most extraneous stance swapping, they all result in burned time and burned rage generation. Even with Shield Slam, you would be hard pressed to beat the extra rage generation and damage done (pure threat) from using a good 2 hander with Windfury. Heroic Strike is threat, it bypasses glancing blows and miss rate, and does more damage on top of the threat modifier. There are very few reasons not to use it in a high rage situation.
Devastate + 2H + Windfury beats the standard sword and board approach as far as threat generation goes - remember Devastate hits pretty hard with a 2H and as every GCD your devastating you get lots of Windfury procs, which again hit a lot harder with your 2Her. As Edge says try and mix a bit of +hit gear in if you can without totally gimping your tank stats.
The pounding/zerk rage is kinda obvious as well but is worth mentioning.
Disclaimer - This is for Void Reaver specifically. For Gruul you really don't want to get hit by a HS without your shield out. Just wear your best tank gear and use cave-ins/intervene (after a HS) if your desperate for rage, get hunters to chain use MD on you as well.
Devastate + 2H + Windfury beats the standard sword and board approach as far as threat generation goes - remember Devastate hits pretty hard with a 2H.
Devastate requires 1handers. Ad far as generating threat, it depends more on your gear. If your tank gear is better, go for slams. If your dps gear is better, DW and spam HS (seconded on the rage pot suggestion).
Also, try swopping some gear out to give you a little more punch while still maintaining 490 defense and solid stamina. For instance, I use my Drake Fang Talisman and maybe even Worgen Claw Necklace as both give +hit and some extra attack power without making me a defensive liability.
This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.
Once again I haven't seen any mention of block value. If you need to keep a shield on, put on some block value gear and +hit, sharpening stone (if you're not getting WF) etc. Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker ftw.
Also, this is probably obvious to most people, but make sure (if you have the option) you stand behind the boss, or to the side.. enough to where you wont get parries. I usually do this on gruul, and rogues / other melee stand on the opposite side so it doesn't mess with their backstabs when gruul momentarily turns to me.
Once again I haven't seen any mention of block value. If you need to keep a shield on, put on some block value gear and +hit, sharpening stone (if you're not getting WF) etc. Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker ftw.
Also, this is probably obvious to most people, but make sure (if you have the option) you stand behind the boss, or to the side.. enough to where you wont get parries. I usually do this on gruul, and rogues / other melee stand on the opposite side so it doesn't mess with their backstabs when gruul momentarily turns to me.
I agree with these guys. I'm in the OT role on many fights. I go with my best devastate weapon, stack as much hit and block value as I can reasonably do. stand behind when possible to avoid parries. Take boss aoe to get rage (lurker's whirl, gruul's cave in, etc). Shield Slam whenever its up (sometimes need to save rage), devastate otherwise. Heroic strike if I got a lot of rage for some reason. Can do revenge on gruul easily by popping shield block in time with the hurtfuls.
If you are fighting to stay on the heels of the MT for fights such as VR or Gruul, follow these four easy steps:
1) Equip all of your tanking gear that you would use to tank the boss
2) Equip your two best DW fury weapons and apply sharpening stones to them (unless you have a windfury buddy-then just do the OH).
3) Go into Defensive Stance
4) Spam Devastate on 5 sunders and HS with any additional rage
You can easily overtake the MT's threat using this method - especially if you get additional rage from cave-ins etc., so be careful. If you are getting significant rage from damage, make sure to balance your MH weapon speed so you can HS enough to not waste rage.
Once again I haven't seen any mention of block value. If you need to keep a shield on, put on some block value gear and +hit, sharpening stone (if you're not getting WF) etc. Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker ftw.
Also, this is probably obvious to most people, but make sure (if you have the option) you stand behind the boss, or to the side.. enough to where you wont get parries. I usually do this on gruul, and rogues / other melee stand on the opposite side so it doesn't mess with their backstabs when gruul momentarily turns to me.
I have been wondering about warrior threat generation as an off-tank and if I wasn't so slack would have asked about it already, thanks for the right thread to ask in.
Your point about standing behind the mob makes sense for avoiding the blocks and parries but limits the use of Revenge which at two rage is amazing.
I like the, Shield Block the Hateful Strikes, plan for Gruul but what about Void Reaver?
Can Pounding be avoided letting you use Revenge?
I imagine having all the tanks in front of Void Reaver would be bad as that might just get a tank killed with the faster attacks after he parries.
More info from warriors who normally off-tank is most appreciated
I imagine having all the tanks in front of Void Reaver would be bad as that might just get a tank killed with the faster attacks after he parries.
VR attacks faster after he parries? We usually have all the tanks stack up so the rogues don't have to move as much to stay behind him and to keep healers in easy range of all the tanks. I haven't noticed him speeding up attacks, or maybe his attacks are always sped up with multiple tanks always in front of him. In any case, I can tell you that tanks on VR aren't hard to keep alive, even if they are all piled in front of him.
VR attacks faster after he parries? We usually have all the tanks stack up so the rogues don't have to move as much to stay behind him and to keep healers in easy range of all the tanks. I haven't noticed him speeding up attacks, or maybe his attacks are always sped up with multiple tanks always in front of him. In any case, I can tell you that tanks on VR aren't hard to keep alive, even if they are all piled in front of him.
Yep, never have any melee in front of any boss. It lowers your DPS/TPS and causes unnescessary wipes. We had several times with our tank die or nearly die on grul saying he got crushed while keeping shield block up which means grul parried someone or else shield block would've made those crushes impossible.
Yep, never have any melee in front of any boss. It lowers your DPS/TPS and causes unnescessary wipes. We had several times with our tank die or nearly die on grul saying he got crushed while keeping shield block up which means grul parried someone or else shield block would've made those crushes impossible.
For VR, in my experience as a healer with all tanks in front of him, it's a moot point his damage output isn't nearly as high (or at least as spikey) as Gruul. Generally for us the prime concern is keeping the tanks in range of the healers and the DPS behind him to allow for more DPS uptime.
For VR, in my experience as a healer with all tanks in front of him, it's a moot point his damage output isn't nearly as high (or at least as spikey) as Gruul. Generally for us the prime concern is keeping the tanks in range of the healers and the DPS behind him to allow for more DPS uptime.
The more significant effect is that all your OTs will be getting parries from VR, so they just lost about 15% threat generation.
On VR i always swap my trinkets for Crit, cloak and rings with hit/crit on and neck with hit/crit on and works wonders, i still have 490 def, 25% crit (with bear) and ~5% hit and makes a world of diff for hate (im prot spec) spamming SS and Devi and quickly catch all other tanks up after KB. I got killed once @ 70% and was back to tanking by 40% after a battle res.
Not Oted Gruul since we killed him tho, always MT him.
What I do is have our hunters use misdirect on tank 2 and tank 3 (we use more than 1 since hurtful strike is still hitting random people) to ensure that they are 2nd and 3rd on the list, respectively.
07/05/07, 1:03 PM
Can cross a fat 2Her off my shopping list then 
Similar Threads
