Evolve

Greetings, I have been spending the last few days in making an as complete as possible threat calculator for paladins, it will accept all your stats, and calculate your threat out of it. Now, I would like to post it here so it is possible for other people to use it, and correct it (as I'm sure plenty of calculations errors have slipped in).

Out of my calculations I have also discovered the following. Even though most of this is largely known, here it is again (if they are correct)
- Seal of Vengeance outperforms all other seals for tanking as soon as it is stacked up and if it does not fall off (slow weapon needed) but due to better scaling of SoR it will outperform SoV at some point high spelldamage (which depends on current buffs)
- Seal of Blood is the worst tanking seal
- Judgement of Vengeance is the most efficient source of threat followed by holy shield
- A significant amount of our threat comes from power gains (are those included into KTM/Omen ?)

The file can be downloaded here: http://cncfanatic.free.fr/Palathreat.xls

NB: I'm planning to do more calculations regarding what talents give more threat then others on average and how much TPS one spelldmg adds, but I first want to be sure my calculations are correct.
NB 2: I hope it is ok for me to make a new thread about this, I think this doesn't completely suit in the Paladin MTing viability thread.

edit: I'd need information on how glancing blows work to include them into the sheet.

 

Balkoth

Considering they let the warrior TPS thread exist, I'd imagine you're safe.

Definitely going to get this when I get home, this should make a paladin friend of mine very happy. Thanks for putting in the effort.

Oh, and I think Omen counts power gains...I think KTM only tracks a few of them, though, like rage (from Bloodrage, if I recall correctly).

 

Punscho

It's a narrow but important topic so of course it's a valid thread.

 

Eir

This is something I've noticed for a long time now. There's a very widespread belief amongst tanking Paladins that we somehow have some magical higher amount of threat. Unfortunately, this leads to players believing that 200 Spell Damage is all that will ever be necessary and gearing themselves in avoidance gear with really poor threat generation.

Playing alongside 2 crazy Prot Warriors who obsess about their TPS constantly, I get to see the brunt of this first hand.

 

thaen

It would be great to add spell damage to this. It's always been my "feeling" that 1 spell damage = 1 TPS (based on the coefficients to consec, sor/jor, and holy shield), but it would be good to see it math'ed.

 

Evolve

I want 100% confirmation that my maths are correct first
It'd be a waste to calculate it and then find out my maths are wrong :p

 

Arglebargle

Can I ask why your mitigation calculations do not take parry rating into account at all? I see the 5% from deflection, 5% base, % from defense, but no % from rating.

I noticed it while trying to figure out if I should turn in my t5 shoulder token or stick with t4.

 

Evolve

I had stupidly forgotten it as I have 0 parry rating myself, fixed

 

Arglebargle

Perfect, thanks so much for sharing this tool.

I have been chatting today with my friend who has a shadowpriest, and trying to figure out how much mana his Vampiric Touch would return in addition to the incoming healing. It really is only significant for the 'seconds before OOM' field on your sheet as far as I can tell.

I think it might be a bit out of scope for your spreadsheet, though (you would need to know the dps of the shadowpriest to figure it out) - but it is something to consider.

 

Arglebargle

It might be worth spending a bit more time on the talents/ratings/etc. that you do not have if you want to make this something other pallies can use 'out of the box.'

The precision talent is another case of this: you have a spot for it on your talent sheet but I cannot find a reference to it in your 'melee chance to miss' calculation. A simple fix I think!

I am really quite thrilled with this sheet, and I hope my comments come across as constructive.

 

Evolve

The sheet being so huge, its hard to control if everything is correct on my own. Fixed now

 

Deth

I hate to be nitpicky, but blanket statements about Paladin's not outperforming warriors on threat aren't appreciated. Either explain how you came to this conclusion or remove it. There is no magical TPS value for the Warrior class so making a blanket statement is very one sided and feeds people that will read your summary and completely ignore the mechanics.

I would greatly appreciate however, a table of TPS calculated from the warrior chart vs TPS calculated from your chart. This would allow people to gauge their spelldamage stats and see if they need to boost it up to compete with a well played and geared Prot Warrior.

Again I don't mind your comment, but I think a lot of people are going to misread it as a class difference rather than the real issue, which is a difference in gear and stat focus.

"Death is only the Ultimate Excuse"

 

Evolve

There is already a warrior TPS spreadsheet around in this forum. You can go check it, for what I understand about it (I'm no warrior expert at all ...), their best threat cycles give about the same TPS as a paladin if that sheet is correct, it can be found at [Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.

 

• Theras

I think what he's getting is that, while that may be true for your Paladin, it isn't true for everybody's Paladins. Using your sheet I calculated that once I finish my Tier 5 suit I'll be sitting at a healthy 1050 TPS on non-undead targets, without any consumables or special buffs (like Wrath of Air, or Wizard Oil).

Also, for a bug report: if you set Exorcism to Rank 0 it still contributes some minute amount of threat to your final total. Seems a bit odd.

<Illidari Demon Hunter>

 

Evolve

Hmmmm, that might indeed be the case, I'll remove the comment then (and fix Exorcism, damn bugs )

edit: when I open the xls, I get a macro warning,why's that (I didn't include any macro's in my sheet)?

edit 2: Fixed the rank 0 error for all spells, the problem was that the base damage was set to 0, but they would still scale with spelldamage, silly really .

 

Cathela

That's not terribly far off from what I see from our highest-threat prot warriors. They tend to run in the neighborhood of 900-1000 TPS and we're still moving into the T5 content so they've got some upgrade room ahead of them.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Evolve

Would be nice to know if that is with or without windfury, as , from the limited warrior knowledge I have. It seems that windfury totem is a huge threat upgrade for warriors (even better then wrath of air for paladins)

It's not a tank's job to keep everyone alive, it's the tank's job to keep the competent people alive. if that's the entire party, it's a good day

 

Cathela

That's without windfury. I watched KTM today in SSC and the one prot warrior we had was hitting 1100-1200 with windfury.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• Theras

Our current best Protection Warrior theorycrafting puts that pretty high, even for trash. Questions to follow:

1. Are you sure that didn't include multi-target Thunderclapping? KTM doesn't properly report multi-target threat on individual targets, and reports it instead as an aggregate figure.
2. I assume there was no Shield Block use, either? That's important in boss fights, where Paladins supposedly struggle the most.
3. Were they in a high block value set? A lot of tanks pop into a high block value set for trash, where it makes a very significant difference both in damage mitigated and threat generation.

I don't doubt your account, Cathela, but I suspect there may be more than meets the eye here. Possibly your tank is a robot in disguise.

P.S. Transformers was awesome.

<Illidari Demon Hunter>

 

Lorenne

Your formula for melee hit % (cell B95) is incorrectly duplicating the spell hit % formula. You'll want to update it to be something along the lines of "=(5+((B3-B2)*5*0.24))%" (5% base miss plus 0.24% per difference in weapon skill versus defense rating). Likewise, the formula for weapon skill (cell D95) should be updated to "=-D92*0.24%" which uses the correct weapon skill rating adjustment against a mob instead of the 0.04% against a player.

Your seal selection cell (D11) requires "Righteouss" to correctly calculate Righteousness on the threat sheet. You'll need to either update your formulas (preferable) or change the tool tip for the title cell.

If you're looking to calculate the point at which Vengeance and Righteousness intersect there was some theorycraft done in another thread here - Paladin: Seal Mechanics. Several of the variables mentioned in that thread such as initial and subsequent SoV +dmg application and SoR weapon buff procs are no longer relevant but it's a good place to start.

 

Cathela

I only checked a few times, all of them on trash. I'll try to get a better look over the next few days.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Evolve

Those have been fixed, wouldn't that make weapon skill a bit more appealing, 2.40% chance to hit and 0.5% chance to crit aint that bad if you have points to spare (unfortunatly, in the prot's tree current state, you do not )

It's not a tank's job to keep everyone alive, it's the tank's job to keep the competent people alive. if that's the entire party, it's a good day

 

zeidrich