Obould

For the theory keep reading, and go through the the whole original post. A member of this forum wrote a html-site which will calculate based on the tanks WWS his threat.

All rights go to Coolyo who wrote it: TPS Calculator with WWS link to Tank (Warrior)



1) Introduction

There are several posts regarding sustained TPS as well a Spreadsheet ([Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.), what i would like to find out is if the "reality" can hold up "even close" to this sheet.

I will use WWS parsed encounter and provide hard numbers with calculations which everyone is invited to re-check and find out if my numbers are correct.

I was under the impression as well that 1200+ sustained TPS is easy to achive, but once i was re-checking calculations my guild-mate made i got very interrested in the real outcome and i was kinda suprised what we found out.

2) The fight

What we need is a Tank & Spank fight, ppl of this community, especially tank will agree with me, that one of those encounters is Teron Gorefiend in Black Temple.

I am choosing an anonymous report on WWS, which is by this date the on the Raid-DPS counted as number 6.

Wow Web Stats

Sitta was the MT in this fight, you can find his numbers and detailed information here:

Wow Web Stats

3) The Threat Values

Warrior Skills:

Sunder Armor (Rank 6) _________ 301
Heroic Strike (Rank 10) _______ 196
Heroic Strike (Rank 11) [book]_ 220 (guess)
Revenge (Rank 8) ______________ 201
Shield Bash (Rank 4) __________ 230
Shield Slam (Rank 6) __________ 307
Devastate (Rank All)___________ 101
Thunder Clap (Rank All)____ +75%dmg
Cleave (Rank 6) _______________ 130 (split)
Disarm_________________________ 104
Mocking Blow (Rank 6) _________ 290
Demoralizing Shout (Rank 7) ___ 56 (split)
Battleshout (Rank 8) __________ 69 (split)
Commanding Shout ______________ 68 (split)
Hamstring (Rank 4) ____________ 181

Note: This numbers are also used in the Thread-1.0 library Omen uses, as well as KTM-Threatmeter

Healing Threat:

Healing Threat is usually half the "Effective Healing" done, and then spread with the number of mobs, which in this case for Teron we asume the # of mobs = 1, multiplied with the modifier (see Modifier below).

Modifiers

Defensive Stance: x 1,3
Defiance Skill: +15%
=================
MOD x 1.495


4) The WWS Numbers

Wow Web Stats

Ability_______________DMG________Landed Hits______Landed Crits
Heroic Strike................41.913............76......................17
Shield Slam.................34.924............29.....................6
Devastate....................15.374............40....................6
Revenge......................13.280............29....................5
Melee..........................11.191
ThunderClap..................1.879............10.....................0

Note:
Why the landed hits + landed crits, because otherwhise we dont catch the DMG number, example for Heroic Strike (for avg dmg hit / crit check WWS)

Heroic Strike DMG = AvgHitDmg x LandedHits + AvgCritDmg x LandedCrits
Heroic Strike DMG = 381 x 76 + 759 x 17 = 41,859 which comes close to the reported number!!


Ability___________________Heals________Overheal%
PrayerofMending...........38.656............20%
EarthShield...................21.633.............7%
ILotP............................20.991............50%
SealofLight....................14.263............68%
Lifebloom......................14.223............26%


4) The Calculation

Threat from damage:

Ability__________________DMG
Heroic Strike................41.913
Shield Slam.................34.924
Devastate....................15.374
Revenge......................13.280
Melee..........................11.191
ThunderClap..................1.879
=======================
Raw damage done: .... 118561

Threat from raw dmg x 1.495 : 177249


Threat from Skills used:

Heroic Strike:......220 x (76+17) x 1,495 = 30588
Shield Slam:.......307 x (29+6) x 1,495 = 16064
Devastate:..........101 x (40+6) x 1,495 = 6946
Revenge:............201 x (29+5) x 1,495 = 10217
ThunderClap........1.879 x 1,75 x 1,495 = 4916
SunderArmor........301 x 5 x 1,495 = 2250
==============================

Threat from Skills = 70981


Healing Threat

Effective Healing only, is Raw Healing minus the Overheals:

PoM:..30925
ES:.....20119
ILotP:.10496 (REMOVED, see posts below)
SoL:.....4564
LB:.....10522 (REMOVED, see posts below)
=========
SUM....55608


Healing Threat for MT = 55608 / 2 x 1,495 = 41566


Summing all the three values up now and we get a Threat number of:

DMG:......177249 (61%)
SKILLS:.....70981 (24%)
HEALS:......41566 (15%)
============
...............289796

The fight lasted
from: 19:08'58.609
to: 19:13'50.421
==============
~ 4mins 50sec = 292sec


Sustained TPS: 992


5) Conclusion

This is top end TPS guys, you can go ahead and check the other WWS from Teron GoreFiend, if you find a better example please post.

Check first the tanks own DPS done in the fight because as you can see, 61% of all the Threat comes from the own dmg and if its lower then 413DPS like it is for this Warrior, dont even start trying to calculate.

What is even more amazing is the healing threat, it accumulates to 15%.

I dont know any other fight atm which is so stationary, has a hard hitting mob and is really a nice example of Tank & Spank encounter, so i dont think you can try any other fight to accomplish more sustained TPS, but go ahead prove me wrong.

Please, also dont just post now but well then 1200+ TPS should be easy reachable, it is not a feral druid in your group with his 5% crit-aura is ~ flat 33TPS and this guy already had one.

The only support this guy did not have was Battleshout and a WF totem but check out this guy he had at least WF: Derrida - WWS and his melee-threat = 171k (which is lower then Sitta's)

Anyway, my conclusion is this if you want more TPS then your raw-melee dmg has to go up, which is yet actually full in symbosis with rage gained thus beeing able to use skills.

EDITED:
- removed LB/LotP healing thread, TPS went from 1009 -> 956
- original healing threat went from 20% -> 15% overall
- confirmed MODs for healing apply, tested with PoM
- landed hits did not included landed crits, so the threat from skill has changed TPS change again from 956 -> 992

 

Punscho

2.1 patch notes:
Improved Leader of the Pack: This ability will no longer generate threat.

Also I was under the impression that lifebloom had its threat assigned to different persons during the ticks than the final heal. Something I don't know if you accounted for. The ticks to the reciever and the final heal to the caster? Or was i the other way around?

Yes PoM and ES are great for your tank's threat! But hard to model into a spreadsheet.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

I'm pretty sure both the heal tics and the actual bloom are credited to the caster for lifebloom. And I think he meant LoTP generated more threat by increasing the crit% on the warrior's attacks, not that the aura itself generated threat.

 

galzohar

Afaik the ticks count for the healer and the bloom counts for the tank.

 

• Apate

See you, auntie.
"lol" is not a period lol
You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

• Gwaihir

I wouldn't dismiss a WF totem so easily.. Especially if your tank has a Thunderfury, Windfury can bump his threat up by a good 100 TPS, in my experience. Granted, the only way we tested this was ingame with KTM + Omen, looking at the numbers for total threat and dividing by combat time, so it probably was not as accurate as a plain parse, but- Without Windfury we saw just about exactly what you did, about 1000 TPS, with WF it went up to a good 1150 ish.

Also, I'm not sure how good an idea it is to add in healing threat from Earth Shields, PoMs, and Lifeblooms when considering plain sustained threat generation, as those things are entirely out of your tank's control, and are probably going to vary considerably more from tank to tank and guild to guild than plain tank skill usage.

 

D4vE

Also note the 1.49 modifier for healing might not apply. In game tool tips state: "increases threat" for defensive stance, and "increases threat of your attacks" for defiance.

We planned to test this out, I hope we find the time this week, too busy killing bosses in hyjal at the moment.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

Heh, I searched it to see if that warlock ever posted more testing. The thing is, in the omen thread they say their tests showed the opposite.

 

Obould

Well with LB/LotP removed we just droped from 1009 -> 956 TPS.....originally (with LB+LotP) healing threat helped 20% now its only 15%.

And i hardly belive WF will bump TPS by 100.......

IMO on such fights like Teron, were your rage bar is filled, you hardly get any raw white dmg anymore let me explain why i think it is like this:

Count all hits from HS/SS/REV/DEV: 174
Count all raw white hits: 30

Lets assume 20% proc chance for WF on the sum of this attacks = 200 .... so 20% = 40

Note:
I dont even know if SS / DEV procs WF, do all skills still proc it i know Sunder does but i dont think DEV does please someone check this!!

So we get +40 raw white attacks from WF, AVG hit for 222 = 8880dmg = extra 13276 threat from WF totem

So we are now at 1001TPS instead of 956TPS. Well so lets say MAX what WF can do is 50TPS which is ALREADY VERY BIG VALUE!!

 

• Apate

Ok, so I remember the testing in the Omen thread, but I can't pull it up despite search attempts.

Was the test done on LB or just PoM (or ES?)? I think I recall seeing pretty conclusive stuff done regarding the latter 2. If there is testing on lifebloom, can you please copy it into the thread I linked above. Think of it as a boon to anyone who searches in the future (or to nerds who have that thread subscribed ).

EDIT: To the below...booooo, need good data. Mostly, I want people to stop saying "LB is great threat for the tank" like they know, or "the combat log says.,.."

See you, auntie.
"lol" is not a period lol
You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

◊ Kasi

Good calculations here. Also I think answers some posts in the hybrid thread about whether warriors in BT gear can get 1500-2000 TPS. Based on this I think the fairly conclusive answer is no.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

He was talking about with Thunderfury.

And I'll check on LB, but if you're worrying about modeling the threat I wouldn't include self-heals at all. There's no way to really control them and ensure that they actually cause threat (or at least in the case of LB). Remember that overheal causes no threat.

I'll find the post in the Omen thread, the problem is both the post in the Omen thread and in the LB threat thread are basically the same: "I tested it and it did xxxx" without any validation or shared data.

 

Obould

Ah okay, well TF is an insane weapon STILL to this day, i mean the raw white dmg sucks but check his out:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=p6w6lk51gmvqg&a=7

Combine white dmg + thunderfury procs from it and check some other Najentus kills, nothing is even comming close to it, so yeah for TF + WF its a bigger TPS increase.

 

galzohar

Remember that if you're maintaining something crazy like 1600 DPS with a rogue with salv on you will have 1600*0.8*0.7=896 tps... So 1500 tps for a tank is far from nescessary. For a mage it's only 0.9 instead of 0.8 but you probably aren't gonna get 1600 dps either ;p of cousre these numbers are just guestimations but I don't see how you can realistically do enough DPS to pull aggro from a good tank if you have salv on. If you don't have salv, well, recruit more pallies... 2 blessings is a minimum for raiding and 3 is optimal

Shadow priest is the only DPS class that can reach insane TPS values and that's only when you're getting full effect (or close to full effect) of VE while having awesome DPS. I hadn't seen a fight though where VE is actually doing full time healing - shadow priests are always #1 on the overhealing meters by far.

 

D4vE

We have tested healing threat yesterday:

Obould (defiance specced) got body agro from a lvl 70 elite Illidari Watcher in SMV, turned his back to him to avoid any rage generation from blocks and 2 of our priests PoM healed him for 15-20k HP, then switched to normal healing.
After the priests switched to normal healing, a rogue started to auto-attack dps the mob with 2 low dps weapons until he got agro and vanished.

We repeated this test with me (not defiance specced) and a double pull.

Conclusio:

- PoM is awarded the full threat multiplier from defense stance and defiance.
- KTM recognizes this threat correctly on a single mob.
- The healing agro was split between the 2 mobs at the double pull, the rogue only needed to do half the damage/threat to draw agro (KTM failed to predict this).

I hope Obould will back this up with hard evidence (WWS parses) later today, I just wanted to let you know.

 

Obould

UPDATE:

WWS does not report in the landed hits also the landed crits so for a correct value on skill threat i had to add the number of landed crits

Evidence: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=3912-4204&a=5

Press on the 381 number

You will get a detailed window with also the landed crits now!!

Heroic Strike DMG = AvgHitDmg x LandedHits + AvgCritDmg x LandedCrits
Heroic Strike DMG = 381 x 76 + 759 x 17 = 41,859


Note: Thanks to Luciolle for this finding

 

Lumi

I don't see demo shout in any of the warrior's WWS sections. I also see he had to keep up his own thunderclap (and probably his own demo shout) and had no windfury.

 

D4vE

Yes, demo shout as well as sunder armor is very hard to track in WWS.

See this post for the first calculations we made and the assumptions which where taken:
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior

Most WWS we checked out don't have a shaman in MT group, most common is either 2 warriors or 1 warrior and 1 feral druid. It would be interesting to get a WWS parse of a fully "threat" buffed tank though.

 

Agren

Demo shout is not attributable to any player from the combat log, it's only attributed when it resists. Debuffs and buffs on bosses also are not affected by the combat log extensions, so if a WWS is done from a log of a player at range, they may not appear in the combat log due to range.

 

galzohar

Afaik because how the combat log works, ktm/omen add up all threat done on mobs with the same name, so if you pull 2X of the same mob it'll add up the threat on both looking as if the threat wasn't split. I suggest testing on a double pull of mobs with different names.

 

Vulpes

Please write lossendil to ADD TPS calculations into his stats package. TPS has become a huge topic

 

• Apate

I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to keep WWS to "hard topics"


Threat is still somewhat of a grey area. I'd rather see an alternative tool to do it than have people look at a WWS log and assume it is right. Omen and KTM already cause enough of this, grateful as I am to have the tools.

See you, auntie.
"lol" is not a period lol
You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

Coeus

From the WWS forum moderator:
As it stands, WWS doesn't have to really know anything about internal game mechanics. It just reads raw data that isn't affected by patches changing Threat values, talents, or anything. 500 damage is 500 damage. Always. TPS opens a whole new cans of worms. I'd love to see it, but I don't think it's going to happen.