• Sunchips

Just curious, how easy it would be to just plug and chug my tanks numbers from our gorefiend kill into your post? I'd love to see what my tank was doing. Omen read him at 1200-1300 tps; but other people said it was reading at 2k so that's a bit rediculous.

I sent you a PM with the WWS, I'll probably just try and run the numbers myself based on what you did.



EDIT: Here's the WWS if anyone else wants to take a stab at it. Tank is Zyklonj.

Wow Web Stats

 

Llilyth

Your raid probably needs to update Omen. TPS calculations used to be bugged and showed numbers that were way too high.

 

• Sunchips

Its definitely way too high. I ran the numbers following Obould's calculations and got a 769.7 sustained TPS. At the same time our raids dps was about 4k dps lower than the sample that Obould used.

 

Sukaflops

That amount of threat seems a lot more realistic that 2000 TPS that is for sure



Only 10 TPS that my MT was doing, which sadly was not enough and we had to get rid of WF for the melee

 

• Sunchips

We didn't have any issues aggro wise is the thing.

770 seems very low but afaik the only person with issues that night was an affliction lock (who got an early ghost call on the kill) and our fury warrior. 4 rogues, 3 with WF and BS, the other with GoA, LoTP and 2 BM hunters and 770 TPS was enough to hold their 1100-1200 dps down.

I dunno maybe I did the calculations wrong; followed Obould's model to a T, just plugging in my tanks values in place.

 

Sukaflops

but according to swstats/recap and WWS of the wipes where i had WF, was doing ~1700 DPS

so fun but so much threat

 

Nezralix

It's fairly difficult to maintain an optimal threat rotation, just due to the way warrior threat works in WoW. Heroic Strike every 1.5 seconds, Shield Block every 5 seconds, and the Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate -> Devastate cycle every 1.5 seconds, in many cases on top of making sure that Demo Shout and Thunderclap are up (a DPS warrior *should* be doing this, but in my experience they have a tendency to cry like little girls about it) as well as Commanding Shout, and fairly stringent requirements for positioning and accomodating for extraneous factors like threat wipes. It's pretty common for even skilled tanks to fall considerably short of theoretical threat output.

 

Obould

Well as Nezralix said, a sheet which asumes the best TPS cycles assumes 100 rage all the time and no movement / no debuffing etc...

And i think the best you can come up with that sheet is like 1200-1300 TPS.

Just remove 300-400TPS from this theoretically crafting and Teron fights should end up with tanks ~ 800 to 1000 TPS depending on luck with rage gaining.

But if you think it through:

800TPS from the tank means a rogue (49% threat reduction with salvation) 800/0,49 = 1632DPS he can do.

Realize if he uses vanish exactly half way in the fight, he will never be able to catch up anymore, and can go nuts with 3265DPS for the 2nd half of the fight.

As a sidenote:

Darkmoon Card: Vengeance = 7-9 TPS

 

D4vE

I just took our latest gorefiend kill and Obould had ~ 980 TPS there, pretty impressive for the fact that he had no threat buff at all (no LotP, no BS, no shaman).

Wow Web Stats

Obould - WWS

He also frapsed this one, I don't know if he wants to make it public though =P

Basically ~ 800 TPS is fine for a tank on gorefiend, anyone with a well timed threat reducer should not have any agro problems at all. Shadowpriests and fury warriors are usually the ones drawing agro first.

And yes: dps warriors are usually on DS duty in our guild, TC is too much of a dps loss though with zero points in TM.

I hacked your data in my excel sheet and get approximately the same result ~ 750 TPS for your tank.

 

Obould

Here it is:

default_vs_Teron (MT PoV, with viewing later onto Ghost action)

WWS is one post above

 

Trebor

My best TPS has never included devastate in the rotation and as a MT I dont see any purpose in this ability, infact I have specced without this and have no trouble reaching 900+TPS in a rage sufficient encounter (without WF, BS etc) which I see as decent.
Am I overlooking something that is probably quiet obvious or do others share this opinion?

My normal rotation is sunder/HS + shieldslam/block/revenge when rdy, shouts/Tclap as needed.

 

Agren

Devastate's purpose is to allow the MT to do some DPS. It's more meaningful to someone trying to grind or do 5 mans though. In a raid, it's window dressing, especially since you will want a fast weapon for HS.

 

• squiffy

Devastate + TF = pie.

Otherwise, I find Devastate to be ideal to refresh the sunder stack so that I never have to worry about it falling off. It can be worked into a tanking rotation pretty easily too, without taking a GCD away from anything else you normally do, so why wouldn't you use it for more threat?

 

Agren

It typically isn't significantly more threat unless you have a very high end weapon. Given the scenario I have plugged into the tanking spreadsheet, the difference is 713.9 TPS for a four skill cycle including devastate with full HS, and 705.86 TPS for a four skill cycle including sunder with full HS. If you don't have the rage to HS, then yes, devastate with a slow weapon will be better, which is why it is more effective in five mans (and then only on bosses, trash often doesn't get a full sunder stack before it's down).

 

Xrafice

Yey... This makes me feel better, heh. I am a Gnome Warrior tank currently in Kara. If tanks in BT are doing about 1k TPS, where should I be at? As far as epics go, I have Boots of Elusion, King's Defender, Violet Signet (Revered edition), and Eternium Greathelm. I, on occasion, can breach 800 TPS, but more often than anything, I float around 5-600. Any pointers would be fabulous.

Armory: The Armory

What I'm thinking of respeccing to: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

 

Punscho

That would be the sheet you should ask [Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.
And it does account for lag so it's no 1.5 sek gcd thingy. Sure it does not account for debuffing but in my raid I try to make the OT or dps keep tc up and we use imp CoW instead of demo shout. Even if it's not down on the spot, it's should be pretty close.

 

Xrafice

Ah, but Punscho, that's the very thing the OP just nullified the relevance of.

 

Punscho

Well this thread's focus is to analyse the threat in real events to get a good picture of how threat might really look like in those events, to discredit fairy tales of sustained 1500-2000 TPS warriors.

But that's what it is, the analysis of certain events, certain bosses, gear and buffs. Unless you model something according to the result of the analysis you can't predict how the threat will look in a given situation, like in your case.

The sheet is a model, and even though it does not currently consider ES, PoM (which would be very hard to get some accurancy on) and debuffing the. An interesting thing would be comparing the damage/skill part of a WWS with the sheet's result.

In the first fight of this thread the threat from damage and skills is about 850TPS. If we consider 3-4% +hit, 12% +crit and 400 block value from gear unbuffed and then add most of the buffs we get pretty much around 850 TPS with the sheet assuming a 6-70% uptime on heroic strike (which seems plausible when you look at the damage number in the report).

 

zork

The tps shown in Omen is your tps for the last couple of seconds, its not for the whole fight. A tank could have 200k threat and stop doing anything thus have zero tps after some seconds.

TPS = Threat / length of whole fight.

Getting 1k+ tps is doable but there are some bad factors:
- tank misses alot
- tank gets stunned
- tank dodged to much and runs out of rage

But most of the time if a tank can focus on his stuff and clicks all his buttons accordingly he can easily do over 1000tps sustained (windfury is a big help).
That devastate cannot proc windfury anymore is a tank-nerf imo and makes TF less usefull.

The possibility to spam heroic next to specials is ~300tps difference which is a very big factor.

RothUI Download - Tank Guide - Avoidance Calc - Threat Calc - Rothar - darkmasters.de

 

Punscho

The WF nerfs lowers the TPS output but it's not nearly as bad as some people like to believe.

 

Wueste

I can't find misdirection in this calculation.

 

JamesVZ

Actually, it's nearly useless in a 5 man situation since trash/bosses rarely ever last long enough to show the benefit from it. While I'm not sure what the intended design behind it is, the reason I still click the talent in my trees is due solely to its usefulness on raids. Over a 10 minute boss fight, you can dish out a non-trivial amount of damage with it, and it will *always* hit for more threat than Sunder Armor except in very, very rare cases, and it can crit to boot.

The speed of the weapon has nearly nothing to do with Devastate, since there is a base amount of damage applied per application of Sunder and the contribution from actual weapon damage is cut by 50%. While over the long haul, which is what you should be looking at with Devastate, you may see an increase in damage (it was about a 20 damage increase from TF->King's Defender per Devastate), you will notice a significant decline in threat due to lost HS opportunity.

It's a very useful 41 point talent (and especially sick when combined with a Thunderfury), and as it stands right now I would change nothing except for the fact that *it should replace Sunder Armor completely*.

 

• Jamor

I agree -- for 1 point, why would you not take devastate. A MT doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but every bit helps. On Teron, I can probably hit like 325-350 DPS. It's threat value is better than that of sunder, although if you have imp sunder, threat per rage is better with Sunder. What I have found is that in Hyjal and BT, most bosses hit so hard that rage is not really an issue any longer.

I also agree. Devastate should apply sunders. Would be nice to free up a button for raiding, but for solo play, it would go a long way.

 

D4vE

Because it is not listed by WWS.

Again: these are not absolutely true numbers. This is a method to calculate sustained TPS on a few selected fights, and we came up with it after urban legend tanks who sustain 1200, 1600 and more TPS (true story, read them in this forums numerous times).
But ask yourself: how much impact do 2-3 misdirects every 2 mins have on a 5 min fight?

If you don't use devastate you are missing out a big part of your optimum threat generation. It's superior to sunder armor threat wise in every aspect as soon as 3 sunders are applied. There are higher priority threat moves of course, but a full prot tank should never use SA in favor of devastate. I agree that combining those 2 skills would be a nice perk for speccing 41 points into prot. At the moment we circumvent this tedious disconnect of SA/devastate by letting OT/DPS warrior sunder the mob in the start.