D4vE

That is more than expected tbh and I never wanted to imply that misdirection is useless. Quite the contrary on agro reset/reduce encounters like Void Reaver, Supremus, Bloodboil we always use it. However there is rarely a need for misdirect after the pull and I doubt our hunters automatically cast it every 2 minutes =)

Still the main problem remains the same: you can't read out misdirect threat from WWS, neither can you read out SA or demoshout. You can only make assumptions there. If you find any more accurate way to calculate tank threat feel free to give input, the calculations were already revised numerous times.

 

Punscho

Our hunters use misdirection all fights threat may be an issue. You can read misdirection from a standard combatlog though so I guess the WWS guy(s?) could add it, or someone could write a Threat Parser (tm) instead of using WWS.

8/12 22:14:30.515 Linken gains Misdirection.
8/12 22:14:30.515 You gain Misdirection.
8/12 22:14:31.468 Linken begins to cast Multi-Shot.
8/12 22:14:32.828 Linken 's Multi-Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 604.
8/12 22:14:33.203 Linken 's Auto Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 491.
8/12 22:14:33.953 Linken 's Arcane Shot hits Morogrim Tidewalker for 701 Arcane damage.
8/12 22:14:34.828 Misdirection fades from Linken.
8/12 22:14:34.859 Misdirection fades from you.

 

Grymm

I've been looking at the initial data posted and I wonder why the shield slam and revenge numbers are so much lower than you'd expect. I'm guessing the HS usage is keeping the tank low on rage. Having not tanked that fight myself, I'm not sure if there are other GCD events I am missing.

In a 292 second fight, there are roughly 48 6 second cycles. I run my revenge in with shield slam with 2 GCDs free for devastate or other abilities. Given lag, maybe you complete 40-45 cycles. He completes 34 revenges and 35 shield slams. An extra 5-10 shield slams and 6-10 revenges would net a significant aggro increase. The 10 more shield slams would be about 19500 more threat. The 10 more revenges would be 8800 more threat. That's 97 more tps over the 292 seconds.

Now my point is not so much that the tank underperformed. I'm just assuming he was prioritizing HS (even using the rank 11) over fully cycling abilities. His devastate usage is way down. I back tracked his white damage and figure him to be using a 1.6-1.8 speed weapon which is ideal for HS spam, possibly a king's defender. By HSing so much, he decreases his glances and generates decent threat. In my own tanking, minus the book rank, I only HS as a rage dump. Given a boss that hits hard, it's fairly often, but probably not in the 2:1 HS to Devastate range that tank is in. Many people consider devastate a poor talent.

I calculated with 24% glancing and a crit rate roughly equal to his other abilities that his normal white attacks hit about 48 times (23h/7c/8gl) for an average damage of 233.15. His HS's averaged 450.68. That's a nice boost, 217.5 damage and 220 aggro. Total aggro gained of 654.1 at a min cost of 15 rage (9 talented + 6.0 for loss of swing). 43.61 threat/rage. Now his devastates average 295.65 damage with 101 bonus for 592.99 threat cost of 12. That's 49.416 threat per rage. The devastates are more threat per rage and higher DPS. This is using an HS weapon and the top rank of HS. With only rank 10 hs, how could it not be argued that a devastate priority over HS in rage usage would be beneficial. Additionally, using an HS speed weapon (sub 2.0) does not negate this advantage fully.

My personal cycle has generally been Shield Slam - Revenge - Devastate - X where X can be a needed debuff/buff or another devastate. HS spam occurs as my rage bar creeps up. At max cycling, I'm of course using HS every swing, but it's one of the first things to drop for me given the threat per rage. I don't have the HS rank 11 and I don't have imp HS in my spec so the difference for me is much more significant.

Maybe I have missed something. This most arises from a discussion I had after a Karathress kill where when we switch to Karathress he was not TCed, DSed, or sundered. The tank was using HS/Shield Slam/Revenge exclusively and did not seem to grasp that even sundering for his own benefit was a good idea.

 

Dots

Grymm, that is all just theory. Lag, rage issues and using shouts & TC will often delay the perfect cycle. That is what this thread is all about, going through the combatlog/WWS to see the actual TPS. Maybe you should try it yourself and see how well you really perform. Anything lower than 10 seconds per landed Shield Slam and Revenge is quite good.

Edit: WWS doesn't include the number of crits/misses into the number of hits displayed. So there are a lot more GCD's used on abilities than the number of hits shows (as Balynn also stated below).

 

Balynn

He *landed* 34 revenges and 35 shield slams. I've never seen the encounter, but I would think it's safe to assume there were some misses/parries/dodges in there. That would probably put him around 42 attempted revenges/shield slams. That would give him at least 8.5 attempts per minute, out of a theoretical maximum of 10.

As for Devastate, he landed 46, so he probably attempted at least 55, which puts him around 11.3 per minute. That's a ways short of the 20/min that a 4 cycle would give you, but he easily averaged more than one every rotation.

In fact, the extra devastates are at least some of the reason he has fewer revenges and shield slams. I know the ideal cycle is SS->Rev->Dev->Dev, but I wonder if that extra Dev makes up for the SS/min and Rev/min that you lose. I would think that it is possible to get *very* close to 10 SS/min, 10 Rev/min, and 10 Dev/min, which is better tps than 8.5/8.5/11.3.

tps = (avg dmg + threat bounus) x uses/minute / 60
Assuming an average lag of 100ms, that would allow for a Cycle every 6.1 seconds, or 9.8 cycles/min

9.8/9.8/9.8
Shield Slam...(998 + 307) x 9.8 / 60 = 213.150 tps
Revenge.......(391 + 201) x 9.8 / 60 = 96.693 tps
Devastate.....(334 + 101) x 9.8 / 60 = 71.050 tps
Total.................................380.893 tps

8.5/8.5/11.3
Shield Slam...(998 + 307) x 8.5 / 60 = 184.875 tps
Revenge.......(391 + 201) x 8.5 / 60 = 83.867 tps
Devastate.....(334 + 101) x 11.3 / 60 = 81.925 tps
Total...................................350.667 tps

I know there's a lot of assuming going on in this (the WWS has expired), but from the looks of it, he would've been better off with a 3 cycle instead of trying to squeeze that extra devastate in there.

 

Ulise

People have probably already answered this, but I beg to differ with you: I include devastate in my optimum rotation and for example, I reached 1350 TPS as OT at Gruul yesterday in T4. With TF.

 

terrian

Naturally anyone can achieve very high threat numbers through misdirects, crit streaks, TF procs, etc. No one's debating that high numbers can be briefly achieved by tanks (according to KTM/Omen). This thread isn't concerned with that.

Now, if you --sustained-- 1350 TPS from the start to the end of the fight, that's something I'd like to see. Was your raid composed of 1 druid, 1 shaman, 4 paladins, 2 warriors and 17 hunters with owls, chain-misdirecting Gruul to you and the MT? If so, did you log it?

 

seped

I'm gonna need to try and parse out my own TPS values since I want to prove to myself wether it's better to use the more efficient sunder for my cycle and get more HS's or use the higher TPS devastate and slightly fewer HS's. I'll post some results after I've gotten a chance to sort through my WWS, but if anyone else has looked at this I'd be interested in your results.

 

Althir

This seems to be the most current topic of this nature, so here I will ask:

Is parry as bad as it appears to be? You need so much more parry than dodge to get 1% avoidance, is there any reason to stack +parry, from a threat generation standpoint? Dodge is obviously the worst possibility, since you gain no rage, but does Parry help threat generation in some way that Dodge does not, which accounts for why it is worse point-for-point in item budget?

 

• giansm

When you parry, your next attack is hasted, so you will get in more white damage. I'm not sure if it affects how much rage you get from the mob's (attempted) swing.

 

• constantius

Has anyone done an analysis (or know of a WWS parse that I can analyze myself) of a protection warrior tanking something wearing the DST? I'm curious to see if the haste proc increases white damage enough to justify having one worn over a Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker, as a TPS-increasing tool.

 

• Jamor

Is HS Rank 11 even in the game yet?

 

• Valoran

It is not. Rank 10 is the highest available to anyone in game currently.

 

Punscho

Most prot warrior abilities are on the GCD and not hastened with attack speed. At 100% heroic strikes (no white hits) it (hs) accounts for approximately 50% of you threat, so the gains in threat would at maximum be 50% of the average haste since the other skills are not improved by haste.

I actually added it yo the TPS sheet yesterday but I've not released it yet.

 

D4vE

Show me the WWS and let me prove you wrong =)

 

Tefa

Reached != Averaged I guess. On our Teron Gorefiend last night as a dps warrior I reached 3.1k TPS (can show Omen ofc) but "luckily" it was only for 4/5 seconds during a cd burst.

Our tank is averaging about 700-800 tps and recently has come under some pressure to improve it as in the past we've always blamed ranged/melee for taking aggro not the tanks. Our tank is currently wearing full t5 (pretty much) using the Mallet of the Tides and has Gruuls shield.

 

Mace

I can have peaks of that same amount (3 / 4K for 5-10 seconds).
Still my sustained TPS lies around 850-950 (TF is still <3 with Devastate)
Omen will indeed show a higher TPS because of those peaks, but if you check your threat history with recount you will clearly see the peaks.

 

Grymm

For some reason, most people who do threat calcs on HS use the full value of it's damage for the threat it creates but don't subtract out the amount of white damage you would of done if you had not HSed.

The actual important part of my post, to me, was that Devastate was a more efficient use of rage than HS for aggro generation. For me, then, I use HS when I get over 40 rage. On bosses that hit fast, I usually HS a lot. I don't MT anymore, usually, so I don't have a great idea of how hard/fast some things hit. On the KT adds, I know I can more than use all my rage so I don't HS as much. For them, however, I don't TC/Demo much. They won't kill me and the extra rage keeps my TPS up. I don't have a good tanking weapon so I live with ~800 tps. Switching to a faster weapon and a little respeccing (I'm debuff bot specced) I could work up 900+ tps. Not being MT, that's less useful.

For tank/spank mobs, I sunder up and use a cast sequence macro. My latency is generally pretty good so I don't lose to much on a SS/Rev/2SS cycle. The original posters tank might have been using a single deva rotation. I can't tell. The calculations are performed using rank 11 HS I think (220 added aggro) for some reason which I assumed in my calcs. If not, the math favors devastate even more.

 

Vasilii

Our Guilds tank's threat generation seems really bad in most fights... can you guys take a look at this WWS and make some suggestions? A better rotation perhaps?

Our Bear tanks are amazingly sexy with threat but it seems its really hard on the dps whenever our warrior tanks... any help would be greatly appreciated. If this is a bad tanking fight to WWS please let me know... I can dig up other logs

Thanks!

WWS - Lurker Kill - Sagdih

Also one of our dps warriors seems to excessively use hamstring in boss encounters, is there any reason for this? 28 hamstring applications on a lurker kill. Thanks guys.

 

Punscho

I'm quite puzzled by your reply frankly. Perhaps I can make myself clearer in this post.

I believe that for maximum threat output you should focus on the gcd skills first and just use heroic strike as a rage dump, like you I guess. The optimal cycle imho would be ss, rev, dev, dev, and heroic strike as much as your rage permits. In most cases a white hit + a devastate is more threat than a single heroic strike, and about the same TPM, if not slightly higher.

Assuming we always use that cycle (ss, rev, dev, dev)

There's 3 cases of heroic strike usage: 100% (unlikely), 0% (rage starved or not dumping) and somewhere inbetween (most cases).

At 0% heroic strike usage your melee swings (only white damage) accounts for approximately 30% of your threat.
At 100% heroic strike usage your melee swings (only heroic strike damage) accounts for approximately 50% of your threat.
And all cases inbetween 30% and 50%.

Since haste rating only affects your melee swings we conclude that haste rating at most improves your threat output by 50% of the haste percentage and at the very least 30% of the haste percentage. And that's not really great I think.

4% haste would in the extreme cases be as good as 2% threat on gloves, and in most cases you would need 5-6% haste to get as much effects as the glove enchants.

 

Grymm

I guess it has to do with how you calculate threat since we agree on tactics. If I were to say that HS was 50% of my aggro, I would be talking about the bonus threat of 206 and the bonus damage only as opposed to the entirety of the damage done by the talent. If I were to define what you are referring to, I would say using HS ups my threat from melee swings from 30 to 50% (a significant increase in threat from melee).

As for hamstring spam, I'd have to look at what he's doing. Old WF used to proc on all specials so warriors filled all empty GCDs with hamstring. Now, it is only useful to try and proc Flurry if yours falls off. If you have the rage, it still accomplished something but it's not as key as it used to be. Lurker is a tough fight to quantify tanking skill usage given the numerous breaks in activity.

 

Punscho

Even without wf proccing it's good for flurry hamstring and if you got the rage for it, better than doing nothing. But that's taken care of in the DPS warrior thread.

 

Grymm

Couple things about his skill usage:
29 thunder claps - is he constantly TCing Lurker? If it's improved, it does ok aggro but it won't beat a 5 sunder devastate, shield slam, or revenge. I would just refresh it to keep it up much like demo. If you tactics call for him to tank 2-3 of the adds, then TC spam becomes useful, but our strat never has a tank on more than 1 add at a time and the MT is generally not responsible for much of that.
He did 49 SSs but only 31 revenges. In general, rev and SS usage should be about equal if you cycle them and as high as possible. Turning 18 TCs into revenges would net some threat.
I also see he has about 9% crit with a druid in his group. This means either he had a bad streak or doesn't have cruelty. Cruelty (5% crit) is not a tanking talent persay, but it will provides some additional threat and offensive rage generation. His shield slams hit for about what mine do (which is kind of low). Does he have the +30% block value talent?
What is he shield bashing? I hope not lurker. I put up rend as a joke sometimes. I don't consider it a useful ability.

In short, his shield slams are good, he uses HS less than 50% of the time so he should have rage to shield block/revenge/devastate, but his revenges and devastates are down. When you see him tanking, is he sitting at full rage? I see 9 crushings from Lurker. That seems high.

 

Vasilii

Yeah he has improved TC so he must have been constantly TCing Lurker because he has no responsibility to tank any of the adds. He has 4/5 Cruelty, but no improved demo shout and does not have improved defensive stance. It would seem improved defensive stance would be a good talent to have? am i wrong on that? He does have the +30% block talent.

I can't tell who he was shield bashing

I didn't notice his rage while he was tanking as I'm usually trying to perfect my shot rotations, i can tell someone else to watch it

Thanks for the advice...

Is there anyway I could tell him this without looking like a know-it-all bastard? How could I"sell this" in a way that he will accept it?


Thanks again!

 

• Jamor

I wouldn't toss out Shield bash as completely worthless for tanking. It's a very rage efficient means of threat gen. If I am very low on rage, and revenge is cooled down, it's what I look too next.

I also cycle it in on the adds for Lurker cause they can be dazed, and it causes more damage on HS.