So, made a new Topic because pf is no longer maintaining the sheet. Please use now this Topic to discuss about the sheet, or posting bugs/comments instead of the old one. I'll try to keep the current version updated in this post.

If you do not have Microsoft excel and would like to view the spreadsheet, simply use OpenOffice Calc available free for download at: OpenOffice.org: Home

But some features only works in Microsoft Excel:

- AEP Calculation
- Item compare over AEP
- SaveDPS and the Gear Upgrade
- Gear, Enchant, Gem Upgrade Search
- Equip, Talents, Buff export import

All other should work in Open Office as well.

Get the current Spreadsheet under:
http://rogue.raidcal.com/
Thank you Daysha for the hosting.

Know Issues:
Sometimes, the most optimal cycle is not chosen by the cycle sheet because it calculates proc damage after figuring out which cycle to use.
Vitality, Sinister Calling, and Deadliness do not always round off correctly to match in game values.
Next-stat sheet does not correctly account for crusader/mongoose/wastewalker 4p/etc and as such, data will be slightly off when using the enchant.
Mongoose with seal fate is slightly undervalued since the gained crit% from mongoose does not count toward combo points.
On-use trinkets use an average of the stats they provide. Combining these trinkets with cooldowns or waiting for full energy etc will give trinkets better dps.
Combat Potency is not fully modeled with Mutilate. Since this spec cannot exist, there was no reason to correctly model it.
After some testing on Windfury, it appears as if sometimes more than just the extra attack can receive the windfury attack power bonus, only the extra attack recieves the bonus in the modeling.
The sheet assumes that there are non-integer values for skill level obtained from skill rating. The game probably only use integer values.
Sometimes, activating the 2p Netherblade set bonus causes your dps to go down because the cycle sheet assumes you are wasting CP instead of SND.
Deathmantle 4p, Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality, Cold Blood uses not the realy hit/sec, this were made to avoid bugs and there is no other solution for now.

That's shamans. The Windfury Totem has no cooldown whatsoever.

Another Issue that can be deleted

It would probably be beneficial, although probably fairly time consuming as well, to include a few links to discussions in the previous thread (such as determining the hit cap) to attempt to avoid filling the new thread with questions that have previously been answered on numerous occasions.

EDIT: Although I suppose Nite_Moogle's sticky at the top serves that purpose to a certain extent as well.

And I'd just like to say thank you to all of the people who have contributed to the development of the spreadsheet. It is very much appreciated.

EDIT2: When I get off work I'll do what I can to help come up with some links. I think an FAQ would definitely help to clear up some of the clutter that the old thread was permeated with.

Maybe it would be able to at this in a FAQ at the bottem.
Can search for some thinks when i got enough time, but don't know if i'll find all

In preparation for the nerf to chain procs, would it be as simple as nuking R12 and R13 on the DPS sheets?

Are there any plans to add
- AEP Calculation
- Item compare over AEP
- SaveDPS and the Gear Upgrade
- Gear, Enchant, Gem Upgrade Search
- Equip, Talents, Buff export import
to OpenOffice?

Concerning 2.2 sword spec, I'm assuming that the phrase "can no longer trigger additional extra attacks" includes WF (as well as Sword spec). I guess that will put it more in line with the 5% crit from dagger and fist spec.

It will make things much closer, but it will still be slightly superior due to the fact that the damage gained from an OH crit < the damage gained from a MH swing (whether it crits or not.)

Awesome a new thread! Keep up the good work Ellos.

with the new changes to swords in 2.2

how will a fist/sword spec work out (18/43 spec) with both sword spec and fist spec

seems like u get the benefits of both and you're only loosing filler points?

First post here, altho I've been following the rogue spreadsheet forum for quit some time now. And it has helped me alot with my raid dmg. Keep up the good work, the spreadsheets are awesome. Few minutes ago I've downloaded the "Version 2.2.0.1" and found a minor bug.

Elixir of Major Agility does not apply any dps when switched on.

Armory me. Its nuts.. dmg is insane.

5% crit vs 5% extra attack
Think about it this way:
Assume you have Rogue-A and Rogue-B. Rogue-A has almost no hit and misses 25% of the time. 5% dodge, 25% glance, 30% crit, 15% left over for hits. Rogue-B is better geared and has 0% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 30% crit, 40% left over for crit. Now for some math. Assume both are doing 100 dps to make calculations easy. Crit rates are before spec.

Rogue-A:
First off, his base dmg would be 0 (misses) + 0 (dodges) + 17.5 (25 * 0.7 glance) + 60 (30 * 2 for crit) + 15 (hit) = 92.5 dps.
Suppose they spec'd into fist or dagger and got 5% more crit. They'd now have 25% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 35% crit, 10% hit. Basically, we take 5 from hit and turn it into crit. This nets Rogue-A 5 more dmg per 100 base dps, letting him go from 92.5 to 97.5, a 5.4% increase.
Suppose instead they spec'd into swords. 5% of the LANDED attacks would have a chance to SWING again. This means that for the 70% of attacks landed (25 glance, 30 crit, 15 hit) he's have a chance to do another 92.5 dmg. This works out to an increase of 0.7 * 92.5 * 0.05 = 3.24 more dmg. Ouch. Now, that is a bit biased since OH attacks which normally hit for 75% damage trigger MH swings, but I'll get into that later.

Rogue-B:
First off, his base dmg would be 0 (misses) + 0 (dodges) + 17.5 (glance) + 60 (30 * 2 crit) + 40 (hit) = 117.5 dps. This makes sense, the 25% of Rogue-A's attacks which missed are now hits for Rogue-B.
Suppose they spec'd into fist or dagger and got 5% more crit. They'd now have 0% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 35% crit, 35% hit.
This nets Rogue-B 5 more dmg per 100 base dps, letting him go from 117.5 to 122.5, a 4.3% increase.
Suppose instead they spec'd into swords. 5% of landed attacks would swing again. This means that for the 95% of his attacks which are landing, he's have a chance to do 117.5 more dmg. This works out to 5.58 more dmg. Nice! And remember, this still isn't including the fact that smaller OH attacks proc large MH swings.

Conclusions thus far:
Swords scale much better with hit rating. Sword Spec requires that you land as many attacks as possible so that you have a chance to get your 5% proc. Thanks to crits, those procs can do even more damage (hopefully enough to overcome any misses you still have, and the glancing penalty).
Fist/Dagger spec just adds a flat amount of damage to your attacks based on your weapon dps. Having a higher hit rating or crit rating do NOT increase the damage boost from fist/dagger spec, its always going to be a flat 5 more dmg per 100 dps (attack base damage + attack power bonus.. before glance/hit/miss/crit roll).


Sword Spec mechanics more in-depth:
First, lets assume a 1.5spd offhand and a 2.6spd mainhand. This represents [Merc] Gladiator weapons. If you've got a 2.7 or 1.4 speed you'll get an even bigger boost.
Second, I'll be assuming (for easy calculations) a 100 dps weapon in both hands. It really doesn't matter what the dps of the weapon is, so long as MH and OH are the same.
Third, haste increase the number of MH attacks more than the OH due to combat potency. You will get an identical (percentage) increase in WHITE hits from haste, however more OH hits mean more combat potency means more Sinister Strikes.
Fourth, I'll be roughly modeling a rogue who has everything from Kara, Gruul and Mag. SSC and TE don't include too many HUGE upgrades since T5 is basically for Mutilate crit-junkies. Swords spec with gear a lot, so if your still rocking greens, don't expect this to be necessarily the same for you.. but really, who cares how to maximize dps in greens? Maximize it by getting new gear.

Ok... Offhand starts at 1.5 speed, goes to 1.15 with SnD. Add in either a DST or TSD proc, some mongoose procs, perhaps a Haste pot, Blade Flurry or Bloodlust and you'll average say 1.00 speed. I know I'm usally at either 1.15 or 0.85 speed, pending if I have any sort of haste-type thing proc'd or not. 1.00 speed means 15 energy every 5 seconds. I assume you have 308 hit rating (or really close).

Now, number of attacks per hand which can proc a sword spec (aren't a WF or SS proc themselves.. ie your auto attacks and SS's)
OH:
1.00 speed, this is pretty easy.. 60 attacks a minute
MH:
1.73 speed = 34.6 a minute
SS:
13 energy a second (10 base + 3 from cpots) = (13 * 60) / 40 = 19.5 Sinister stricks a minute
34.6 + 19.5 = 54 MH attacks a minute.

This means that in a minute, you'll get roughly 114 attacks, of which 53% are OH, 47% are MH. 5% of those will be dodged, no big deal.. SS, and white is dodged the dame.

Now, your OH which is rated for 100 dps at 1.5 speed will be hitting for 150 on average (forget AP for now). This gets multiplied by 0.75 for the OH penalty, so you actually hit for 112.5. The 2.6 speed MH will be hitting for 260. Now the math gets a bit more fun.

OH: 60 / 114 = 53%
MH: 35 / 114 = 30%
SS: 19 / 114 = 17%

Your average attack will hit for (0.53 * 112.5) + (0.30 * 260) + (0.17 * [260 + 98]) = 59.625 + 78 + 60.86 = 198.485 damage per swing, pre-crit. Each of these 198 damage swings have a 5% chance to proc another swing which will do 260 damage pre-crit. So..

198.5 * 114 attacks = 22627 dmg per minute
260 * 114 * 0.05 = 1482 dmg per minute
1482 / 22627 = 0.0655.. Thats a 6.55% damage boost from Sword Spec, which beats the hell out of the 5.58% I quoted earlier, and slaughters the 4.3% boost from Fist spec crit bonus.

OH Sword Proc'ing MH attacks
Now lets do a bit more analysis on the OH sword proc'ing MH attacks.
Thats a 112.5 dmg swing proc'ing a 260 damage swing. So if you average it out, thats 260 * 0.05 added to each OH swing. thats 13 damage added, giving you a 125.5 dmg OH swing on average, good for a woping 11.5% increase. DAMN. And remember, crits scale perfectly here.. your OH can crit just as much as the MH, so the damage boosts effectively cancel each other out when turned into percentages.

"your OH can crit just as much as your MH". What if that weren't true? What if your MH crit 5% more. Lets dig deeper.

Fist MH, Sword OH
Assume that 65% of your damage comes from white attacks, 25% from SS, 5% rupture and 5% deadly poison. Thats a reasonably typical fight. White sometimes is more like low-60's, SS high-20's.. whatever. This means that 10% of your damage is independant of weapon or crit rate, just static damage (DP) or dmg boosted only by AP (Rupture).

25% of your damage is purely from your MH (SS)
65% of your damage is from combined MH and OH white swings. Since we're assuming equal dps weapons, your MH should do 100 dps, your OH 75. Or in fractions, 4/7ths vs 3/7ths of the damge. This splits the white damage 37% MH, 28% OH.
Totals:
25 + 37 = 62% damage coming from MH
28% coming from OH
10% independant of weapon.

So of the damage which relates to weapon spec:
62 / 90 = 69% based on MH attacks
28 / 90 = 31% based on OH attacks

Since crit will scale pretty much the same, Fist spec with just a Fist MH would give you 3.45% dps boost (0.69 * 5%).

Think about swords for a for a minute. OH attacks get a 11.5% boost from sword spec, MH gets screwed actually since a SS swing will proc a regular swing (no SS bonuses).

So.. Fist MH and Sword OH?

The 62% of your damage based on MH attacks get a 5% boost = 0.62 * 0.05 = 3.1%
The 31% of your damage based on OH attacks get a 11.5% boost = 0.31 * 0.115 = 3.6%
The 10% of your damage not based on weapons get no boost.

Summary
Thats a total of 6.7% boost from a Fist/Sword combo.
Swords I said earlier get a 6.55% boost, but that was only on the 90% of damage which is weapon-dependant, so its really a 5.9% boost
Fists are lagging behind around a 4% boost.

So, is Fist/Sword better.. I think so. My math supports me. If you can spot a gaping whole in my logic or math, please say so. I realize I rounded off a lot of things and neglected some intricacies, but these are the fundamentals.

Things to remember
The three biggest things I want to mention here are:
1 - This assumes EQUAL DAMAGE WEAPONS. Fists have an itemization gap after Merc. Glad. Right Ripper... theres nothing better after that. The differences we're talking about here are quit minimal (6.7% boost vs 5.9% boost) for having a Sword or Fist MH. Using Blade of Infamy over Merc. Glad R.R. would be more beneficial than staying Fist/Sword.
2 - This assumes the current nature of Sword Spec, where OH attacks proc MH swings and a 1.5spd OH and 2.6spd MH. If you get a 1.4spd OH and a 2.7 or 2.8spd MH, the benefits will increase.
3 - Daggers are a completely seperate topic. Different mechanic. The 5% crit for daggers will end up being the same or similar to the 5% crit from Fists, but its a different setup with weapon speeds and spam-attack.

Loving the [Gem upgrade][All Upgrade] buttons.

Three things I'm wondering.

Could it be possible to give an option to enter your professions, and then detect that because your Mining and Herbing, that you can not create the BoP leatherworking items, and thus filters them out from the floating point?

Could it be added to enter what bosses you've downed, and have only the loot from those bosses displayed?

And last, is there anyway to extract the information from the armory and have it automatically plugged into the spreadsheet?


These are just some things i was wondering and thanks again for the hard work.

Please clarify

My in game to hit rating is 263 (16.68%) as displayed on the character page, and according to the spreadsheet my to hit is 21.65% (unbuffed total 342 - includes 79 from talents). I assume that either a) precision has not been taken into consideration on the WOW sheet or b) the spreadsheet has included precision twice. Which is it?

The hit rating on your character sheet does not include predision. add 5 to what it says.

Latito, you are forgetting one thing. A single non-dagger weapon specced rogue will have 4 or 5 points in vile or imp poison. Now that probably isn't enough for a pure sword specc to overtake fist/swords, but it is most likely enough to level the playing field.

Not in the moment, sorry. Add this would mean to make 2 Sheets. One for Excel and one for Open Office. Well, updating 1 Sheet is work enough (same reason why there isn't a sheet in another language).

Hope they are right

Well, if i get better information about that, I'll change this, but for now it's that what I know

Maybe in a future Version, I'll think about it, but that would be a huge update and will cost much time.

If already thought about it, but at the moment I don't know how I'll get the information via a macro form the web.

While chain procs from sword spec might be nice when they occur, think of the probability of it occuring. I'm doubting that the change on PTR will have much effect on DPS for this reason - Not looked at sheet yet but assuming it will have little effect.

Edit: Seems it does have a large DPS loss when removing R12/R13 on other sheets

The problem with profession specific, or even raid instance specific drops is that currently that information is not contained within the gear pages. This will require a large update to the table structure of the sheets. Which will then require an update to the references that change. I can do that but it will take awhile.

I use a differant spreadsheet based on ShadowPanther site info , where I can import/merge new updates from his site. In it I track which gear I actually have, or upgrades I have access too. Id ultimatly like to merge the 2 sheets, rather than duplicate efforts. My problem with his info is hes choosen to merge Socket bonus's into his gear statistics. So his stats arent accurate if you dont gem accordingly.

Some other minor issues I know of are there no is duplicate checking within upgrade routines for Ring/Trinkets. Or unique property checking for Gems.

Not proccing WF (and sometimes chain proccing WF + SS) is where it will be noticeable.

A couple bugs in 2.2.0.1 - The "Twinblade" label in the offhands is one line up from where it should be, and the gem/enchant search needs to have the 35 changed to a 36