Ashere

I know this spreadsheet is mainly designed for the raiding rogue, but since I'm regularly having debates about viability of the hemo/deep sub spec for every day grinding, I was wondering if there could be some "initial burst" option, to give an estimate for only the first 10 seconds of a fight, or if anyone has some tool to calculate this. This question is mainly because the spreadsheet (for good reasons) doesn't include talents such as setup (which actually has an effect even in raids), Imp Ambush, Master of Subtlety, premeditation and Shadowstep.
I'd find it only kinda obvious, since there's also an "unbuffed" DPS estimate, which should theoretically only happen outside a raid, yet (deep) subtlety calculates pretty low here, while there is definitely a huge burst advantage to the spec which isn't calculated into the results.

 

Rinced

Since the damage mitigation by armor is not linear, this value isn't static either.
The more -armor you have the higher its value is.

What the spreadsheet tells me:

1 Fearie Fire (not improved so no +hit) for example is worth about + 3.5 % DPS for Boss Mobs with only 5 Sunder on them. (No CoR)
This means 610 -armor is worth about 3.5 % -> 10 -armor is worth about 0.055% more DPS

1 Fearie Fire (not improved so no +hit) for example is worth about + 3.5 % DPS for Boss Mobs with 5 Sunder and CoR (800 -armor) on them.
This means 610 -armor is worth about 4 % -> 10 -armor is worth about 0.065% more DPS

I would say the value is something between 0.05% and 0.1 % but thats just a very rough estimate.



To have better values : Base armor for Bosses is ~7000 armor. 5 Sunders means ~4500 armor.
Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki Tells us :

Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

So we have 4500 / (4500+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) = 27.339 % Mitigation
Now with Fearie Fire 3890 / (3890+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) = 24.543 % Mitigation
--> 2.796 % + dmg ~0.45 %
A bit less than what the spreadsheet told us.


So our basic formula is :
a1: first armor value
a2: second armor value
a1 / (a1+11,960) - a2 / (a2+11,960)

I put this in excel whith steps of 100 -armor.
The range of the value is 0.4 % to 0.8 %

So the 0.05% to 0.1 % seems to be a good estimate.

 

royaljester

My question is about hte +hit from faerie fire. Is there a reasonable way for a druid to spec into this and still be raid viable? Everywhere I look, people are mocking the use of moonkin in a raid, which seems the only viable way of including the +hit talent. Is this true or am I just short-sighted?

 

Malan

@Rinced - so really the only way to know the value of armor penetration effects is to have a reasonable estimate of the armor value of the boss to begin with? If that's the case it really becomes difficult to understand whether those items are worth having.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Kallistae

I suppose you could ask a Druid to spec Dreamstate/Healing Touch; it'd be an extra investment of 3 (?) more talent points into Balance instead of Resto over the basic DS/HT build. Something like this maybe.

Not sure how viable that'd be for raid healing; you'd need to ask an actual druid. =P

 

Rhiktif

Raiding mookin are only a joke if the moonkin is lazy, or he sucks. So GL finding a decent one

 

Rinced

Yes because armor-mitigation is not linear.


http://www.wowwiki.com/images/4/46/Armor.JPG


But anyways most Bosses have armor values around 7k armor.

 

jweick

i have been searching for the source of the info and to correct answer:


when damaging from behind a target, what damage midigation is the target not able to do?


thank you in advance

 

◊ Kalman

Yep. -Armor effects increase in value as they are stacked up (since a given -armor is worth more as the result trends toward zero), until they cap out (at 0 armor, obviously.)

Rinced's 7k armor estimate seems accurate for most TBC bosses from what I've seen (there are some who are known lower - Aran, obviously, and from what I'm told HAS/Vashj as well); pre-TBC it was lower.

 

◊ Kalman

A *player* is unable to dodge or parry attacks from behind; the only mitigations possible are armor and miss.

A *mob* can dodge attacks from behind; it cannot parry. Armor and miss apply as normal.

 

Keviel

Blocking is to my knowledge also not possible from behind. Although of course, not many mobs nor players even have the ability to block in the first case.

 

◊ Kalman

Ah, yes. Neither mobs nor players can block from behind.

I knew I was missing one form of mitigation. :/

 

Sneakerpimp

False. TPS is not simply a multiplier of dps. It is also a function of threat modifiers such as abilities (e.g., feint), enchants (e.g., subtety), buffs (e.g., salvation) and items (e.g., Prism of Inner calm). The TPS difference between subtety and +12 agil, for example, is not simply the TPS reduction associated with the loss of DPS (which you could compute by simply comparing the two DPS numbers, as you suggest), but is also a function of the additional threat reduction of the sublety enchant itself.

You are correct that salv is almost certainly the best pally buff for rogues and that dps will be lower in aggro sensitive fights. I didn't suggest otherwise, nor does either observation make TPS any less useful to know.

Not trying to be argumentative...just would hate to see TPS dropped from future versions of the spreadsheet because of a simple misunderstanding.

 

◊ Kalman

Subtlety and Salv and TAT simply change the multiplier, so yes, TPS is simply a multiplier of DPS, barring the use of Feint or the Prism (which, seriously, should never be found on a rogue.)

Feint isn't modeled because it isn't interesting. Prism on a rogue is silly. TPS on the spreadsheet is useless and I hope it'll be dropped. Rogues aren't tanks, and we don't have complex threat mechanics that require TPS modeling like DPS warriors do (since HS has an associated threat component, use of HS to dump rage modifies DPS warrior TPS non-multiplicatively with their DPS.)

 

Stabmaster

Totally agree. No need for TPS whatsoever.

 

Ashere

Everytime you feint to keep below the tank, you'll have a 1 second global cooldown.
Everytime you vanish, you'll have a 1 second global cooldown.
TPS is definitely usefull, since I don't ever expect to be able to go all out against any tanked target except against Netherspite in Kara (but that fight basically messes up your entire DPS avarage anyway, even if it's for the better). Even many trashmobs are very aggro sensitive or immune to taunts, which can be problematic as well. So yes, TPS is definitely usefull. If you know yours, and see the tanks' TPS in KTM or Omen, then you should have a pretty good idea whether to go all out or not.

 

jweick

i was wondering if Drakefang Tailsman could be added to the trinket list, i am getting conflicting info on its value and would love to see the numbers vs spec.

thank you

 

songster

Or you could look at your own TPS in KTM or Omen.

 

jweick

getting a complie error on upgrade calcs..... it says "sub or function not defined"
please note that i am using a Mac and office 2004

 

Melnor

Kalman said "we" when referring to the rogue class?! Are you back to playing a rogue now?
And just to stay on topic, no, don't waste time modeling TPS for rogues in the spreadsheet. I can't think of any rogue ability that generates more than a 1:1 damage to threat ratio anyways so your DPS can be considered your TPS (well considering the passive threat reduction, your dps would probably be your ceiling TPS because most times your tps will be lower than your dps by a good margin). I mean we don't have a revenge or searing pain ability that I'm aware of.

 

◊ castille

It is in there, you have to check 'Old Raid Instances' off to the right.

23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
^ Yes, this actually happened. Yes, Castille is a shaman.

 

Hidden

I don't think there's a need for TPS either, if you know the fight you should also know when you can start doing damage, start using cooldowns and when you need to vanish. I haven't been raiding on my Rogue since TBC but for example on fights like Ebonroc I could start around 20 seconds after the tanks started building aggro, activate all cooldowns at around 80% to vanish at 70% and if we were low on DPS maybe activate a cooldown again at the end of the fight.
No Spreadsheet TPS would've helped me there.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

Re: Mob mitigation.

Use kick, go back through WWS and see what debuffs the mob has and what buffs you have. And come up with a mitigation percent. As far as I know both kick and gouge are still constants. As long as you can track what modifiers were there (percent damage increases, sunders, etc) you should be able to come up with a pretty reasonable estimate per mob. I remember doing some of this in BWL, and for the most part almost all the bosses will probably have the same mitigation barring a few exceptions.

All that being said, 7k sounds reasonable. Though we really don't know if the mob armor formula is the same as the player armor formula. The actual damage reduction can be a known value with a little testing (that has possibly already been done).

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.

 

Malan

Well what we'd like to do is to establish a comparison between -Armor and an AP equivelancy, something like "ignoring 300 armor is the same as having an extra X AP." Figuring that out on a mob to mob basis isn't ideal, I was hoping there'd be a way to model this in a more abstract sense. Perhaps that isn't possible at all though.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

Since armor to percent mitigation isn't linear any variation in the base mob armor value completely throws it off. You can find it for most mobs and then figure out the exceptions to the rule. The -Armor is worth more on some bosses.

E: It being some AP to -Armor equivalence.

E2: That's already been explained, I was just giving an example of how to find an exact armor value if you were interested in finding out just what effect it'll have for a certain encounter, or which encounters it's worth more.

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.