Urraca

I don't think TPS is necessary either, I haven't found a single fight (up to Teron atm) where threat is a problem beyond the first well timed vanish. Most rogues I know don't even have feint up on their bars.

 

Sneakerpimp

Agreed. TPS is simply a multiplyier of DPS...except when it isn't (such as with Feint, Anesthetic Poison, or the Prism). Also agreed that Prism on a rogue is silly (I mentioned it only to illustrate the point that TPS is not only a multiplier of DPS, as a previous poster suggested). Also agreed that TPS is less relevant for rogues than tanks or DPS warriors.

But as for whether TPS it's useful to model, I continue to think it. To give just one example, I'd be insterested in comparing the efficiency of feinting every X seconds versus using anesthetic poisons. Both reduce threat, but both come at the cost of reduced DPS. But which is more efficient? And how do points in improved poisons, vile poisons, and the poisoned weapon's speed influence this? Modeling TPS would help answer those questions. True, rogues have many tools at their disposal to not have to worry about threat. But for those occasions in which they do, it would be nice to know which choices reduce threat the most efficiently. Some choices are obvious (salv vs. might or kings), others (feint vs. anesthetic poisons) are not.

But I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here (unsuccesfully, it seems), so I won't push the issue further. I'd hate to hijack was has to be the most informative and intelligent rogue forum out there. Carry on.

 

Hidden

Vanish > all

 

Trazhenko

I have a quick question for people who use this spreadsheet. In the past, I've typically found that the spreadsheet DPS calculation came out to be more than what I experienced in-game.

It's easy enough to explain it away by saying that maybe the mob armor was set lower in the spreadsheet, or I didn't play perfectly, or my buffs and target debuffs weren't on 100% of the time.

However, last Sunday, I saw just the opposite. I had a rare opportunity to go an entire Morogrim fight without getting put in *any* watery graves for the duration of the fight. The results surprised me, because I clocked in at 1672.1 (displayed by SWS, reset before the fight, starts when I attack, stops when combat drops).

I put the gear and buffs that I had for that fight into the spreadsheet, and it shows 1532, which is a good deal lower than what I experienced. With the periodic knockdowns during the fight, I'd expect lower than perfect numbers even if I did do everything correctly.

The gear on my armory is mostly right, but I was wearing T4 helm with Thundering Skyfire and Glinting Fire Opal, and Dragonspine where you see my Skybreaker whip. Party was Enh Sham/Warr/Warr/Rog/Rog. Kings/Might/Salv. WF MH/DP OH. Flask/20 agi food.

Was I just incredibly lucky? Is something in the sheet grossly undervalued? I really wish I had combat logged it, but morogrim is on farm, and graves are inconsistent, so I didn't even think to log it.

I can give a rough play-by-play on how I did the fight if anyone thinks it would be helpful.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

The spreadsheet isn't going to account for blade flurry actually hitting multiple mobs. Does your guild have the murlocs on tidewalker so blade flurry hits them? If so, there's your answer.

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.

 

Trazhenko

Murlocs are well clear of me on all spawns. This was strictly single target.

 

LiteSabre

I've seen higher-than-projected DPS on maybe two or three mobs; two of which I know have sub-standard armor (Rage and Teron). I did hit ~+100 DPS more than the spreadsheet told me I should be able to do on Illidan P1, but it's quite possible that it was a string of lucky sword spec/WF crits. P1 isn't the longest DPS sample, after all.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

Perhaps there are some debuffs that were not accounted for? Alternately, it could be that since the modeling on the procs is just for an average case, you ended up winning the proc lottery.

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.

 

Trazhenko

This was a full-length morogrim kill. It probably took 7-8 minutes, and he's known to have fairly high armor as far as bosses go.

The spreadsheet is set up to be optimistic. I checked debuffs I'm not even sure were up (FF, CoR). The proc lottery may be the answer, but it was a pretty long fight.

 

Urraca

Speaking of Teron, which seems to be the new DPS test fight, I've been seeing some absolutely crazy rogue WWS logs. My guild just got him for the first time 2x weeks ago, and we didn't get a log on it, but I know we spoil the melee and give them multiple blood-lusts etc.

Anyway, this wws log which was just posted in the WWS thread today: Wow Web Stats

A rogue has a sustained DPS of almost 2.3k for the entire fight (with a 10% miss rate). Granted, he does have the legendary MH and 4-piece t6, but what strikes me is his 'lower' +hit and his emphasis on crit. He's currently a sword spec with 30%+ crit unbuffed, and during this WWS he actually used the ashetongue exalted Trinket...which mostly everyone thinks is subpar.

The point that I'm trying to make is that with maxing +hit being the current vogue thing to do, has crit un-deservingly lost it's reputation as a top stat? Putting in his exact gear (and even 'upgrading' with epic gems + more buffs) the spreadsheet DPS still falls well short of the posted data. I understand that the spreadsheet is not entirely accurate, but usually I find it hard to get near the max dps on most fights, not exceed it by a lot.

In a completely subjective observation with absolutely zero data to back up my claims, is there a a saturation point where adding more and more +hit adds very little additional utility (especially with +haste and endgame gear bringing crit back near pre-tbc levels)? At the surface it seems to me that there there are 3 tiers of +hit: awful, acceptable, and near maxed which is really just more icing on the cake. Has anyone else noticed any trends like this?

 

Trazhenko

I hesitate to draw any conclusions about sustained DPS from that parse, and here's why:

Bloodlust lasts 40 seconds. The fight lasted 170 seconds, and he gained bloodlust 3 times.

 

Urraca

Yes, that was basically a follow up question of mine. Like I prefaced, I know our guild spoils the melee with multiple blood lusts. I'm not quite sure how bloodlust is modeled on the sheet, does it just add an averaged haste rating? Does clicking the box just give it to you for the whole fight (therefore having multiple lusts shouldn't be an issue)?

EDIT: having said that, I left out that Teron's armor is on the low side and is pretty squishy (still not squishy enough to use eviscerate though)

 

Trazhenko

I believe the sheet gives you the average haste that you would get if the 40 seconds were distributed across the 10 minute cooldown of the ability. (40/600) * 30% = 2% haste overall. The Bloodlust line has 21 in the haste rating column, so I think that's what it's doing.

If you take the data from the parse, (120/170) * 30% = 21.18% haste, which is over 10 times as powerful as the spreadsheet version of 40 seconds over 10 minutes.

 

Urraca

Actually going back and looking at the log you see this:

"Present from 03:14'38 to 03:18'28 (100 %)"

Which is equal to: 230 seconds, not 170, and yields a haste value of about: 15.65% (still a lot more powerful then it appears on the spreadsheet.) So I guess that does somewhat account for the gross under-estimation of the DPS on the sheet somewhat.

 

Trazhenko

Whoops! I read that as 2 min 50 sec not 3 min 50 sec. 3 bloodlusts is still pretty crazy overpowered in that timeframe though.

 

Gogge

Clicking "configure" and checking "nb" and "%" for "miss" gives me 18 missed swings for a total of 3%, I think the 10% number includes dodges/parries. Afaik crit is still less valuable than hit for classic combat/swords.

 

Urraca

Yeah, I was quite aware that the 10% included dodges (gorefiend should never ever be parrying your attacks). For rounding purposes, a 10% miss rate would give him an abysmal hit rating of about 160, his gear has him at 225 (according to armory--which is really the wild card and an assumption in this very rough data crunch, since he is now missing gems).

If you say he only had 18 missed swings during that 4 minute fight, it comes out to 4.5 swings per minute missed, which seems negligible at best considering how high his haste had to be and the reason that +hit has grown to the top of the stat charts is due to the addition of combat potency.

 

Wodahs

Teron is a good dps benchmark, as long as you dont get death.
Wodahs - WWS
I used no haste pots, used a major agi and a fortitude pot, and put up 1808 dps, which is roughly 135 dps higher than the spreadsheet predicted. WOuld love to see numbers with more than 1 bloodlust, to be sure.

 

Trazhenko

Is this a known bug with armory? I can't imagine a high-end raiding rogue running around with 7 empty gem sockets. The only gems showing up on his gear are his meta and a couple 10AP/7 stam ones. All his yellow and red slots are empty.

 

Wodahs

Some gems dont show up. Glinting pyrestones dont show up in armory on my gear. However, the hit rating listed is accurate.

 

Dontmindme

There is one significant change that might account for it...
I believe the new sheet has already taken into account the expected patch changes to extra attacks not proccing off extra attacks.

In short, Sword Spec or Windfury will be significantly undervalued right now.

 

Telani

Now that someone (Furi from Blood Legion) has both glaives, does anyone have an estimated proc rate or uptime? I'm assuming it's high since it's legendary, but it would be nice to know how much of an upgrade those are.

 

◊ Kurisu

hmmm according to the WWS i posted in the WWS thread:

Rage:2 Minutes of DPS time and he got 5 procs
Anetheron:3 minutes - 3 procs
Kaz: 2 minutes - 6 procs
Azgalor:3 minutes - 6 procs
Arch 1: 2 minutes - 3 procs
Arch 2: 2 minutes - 6 procs
Arch 3: 5 Minutes - 9 procs
Arch 4(death): 5 minutes - 6 procs

Its pretty safe to assume there isnt an internal cooldown, not sure if it refreshes itself either...

SC Alts: Toremu - shaman

The other main
Kurisa- Druid

 

Telani

Gah, didn't see that earlier when I looked. Basically a built in dragonspine with a higher haste rating, that's just crazy.

 

◊ Kalman

Nope. Kalman is, and will probably remain, 62.

And secondary extra attacks (proc on proc) isn't really that big a difference; it increases sword spec's value by ~5%.