Actually, I've started some preliminary work on dodge. It should be noted that I dual wield with 360 weapon skill. A simple test: At what point do I start to see dodges and parries against lower level mobs...

Given the old theory of 0.04% per weapon skill or 0.2% per level difference for dodge or parry, lower level mobs should still dodge and parry a lot. The problem was that I wasn't seeing dodges and parries against a 57 even though 0.2*15 (360 skill) = 3% reduction, should still have 2% parries and dodges.

So, I went around attacking mobs of various levels until I started to see dodges or parries.
I spent extra time on 62's (in case dodge and parry are also 0.1% like to hit). I didn't keep accurate track since I'd attack mobs around that level and was only looking for misses (i.e I'm not going to pass up attacking a 63 bunched in with 62's for this preliminary testing.)

That said, approximately 1000 attacks on level 62's and I didn't see a single dodge or parry. (There were more attacks on mobs ranging from 57 to 61 without a miss). I did start to see both dodges and parries against level 63's.

Now, if dodge scales the same way as hit (i.e. 0.1% per skill or 0.5% per level), based on a 5% equal level chance to dodge, the 0% point should be 10 levels lower.

Given that I had 360 weapon skill and thus attacked as a level 72, would translate to 0% vs. 62's and 0.5% vs 63's which so far agrees.

So, my preliminary hypothesis is that dodge is reduced 0.1% per weapon skill just as miss chance is decreased. It should be noted, that if they act similarly, we may have some sort of additional 3 level higher effect as well.

Not sure when I will get more testing in, not likely for at least a week as I'm getting ready for judging at GenCon this upcoming week.

But if anyone wants to continue this, I suggest attacking for the front and getting actual numbers of dodges, parries, blocks against specific level mobs.

For a study:
Getting actual number of attacks without dodges and parries against 60 (350 ws) or 62 (360 ws).
Against level 61 mobs (for 350 ws) or 63 mobs (for 360 ws) getting actual numbers of dodges and parries and seeing if this is about 0.5% of attacks.

Hey roguish types, I can't use the spreadsheet from where I am right now (no open office and it's too big for google docs), but I'm curious what kind of numbers a 0/40/21 combat/hemo build would be expected to put up. Would anyone be willing to plug that in with some appropriate gear values (say with a 2.8 speed MH for kicks) and see what they get? Or is it already known in advance that missing out on malice/ruthlessness/relentless/lethality/surprise attacks way more than makes up for any gain you get by using hemo/serrated blades?

Allow me to point you to this thread on the first page of the forums
[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection

Also to the "Forum Search" function, for use when things drop off the front page
http://elitistjerks.com/search.php

More specifically my posting in this thread.

It came out really close, although I'm not so sure it's calculated correctly.
Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness with a 1s/5r cycle came out to be 72 energy for me (30 through Relentless and 1.2 combopoints = 42 energy through Ruthlessness), whereas 5 Combat Potency resulted in roughly 45 energy during the same timeframe (which is about 18 seconds for me).

Have search but didnt find any info. Its said in the working theories of 2.1 that you need 308(or what the numbers was) hitrating to not miss againt lev 73 and bosses. But what number is it againt lev 70? I mean can you skip some hitrating in heriocs for crit/ap?

My estimates (based off the other spreadsheet) shows that Mongoose is superior to the Zul'Aman enchant, and by a decent margin. For low-armored mobs the Zul'aman one might keep up, but on the whole I expect rogues to stick with mongoose. Fury warriors, on the other hand, I'd expect to get a lot of use out of the Zul'aman enchant.

Not an spreadsheet expert, but on the WF fix matter, removing instant attacks from the windfury model lowers(as expected) WF pps.
Now, for some reason, mongoose calculations(on the nextstat sheet) use WF pps in a way that makes mongoose dps increase as wf pps decrease.

I'm sure that all of the above is inaccurate as my excel knownledge is really really basic. But I'm sure that mongoose calculations are the ones that are messing up with all this. If I switch my dual mongoose enchants to dual 15agi I lose 45dps when "fixing" windfury which looks far more realistic.

With 5 points in precision and 10 additional weapon skill through WEx you need 284 hit rating against a level 70 mob. Without the weapon skill you need 300 hit rating.

according to the spreadsheet, abacus of violent odds has ~11dps more than ashtongue talisman of lethality. the uptime of the ashtongue trinket is probably ~75%, keeping with a 3s/5s/5r rupture rotation.

does anything feel that the ashtongue trinket should be contributing more dps or do the numbers sound about right. it adds around 7% crit when up.

The trinket is definately undervalued, if you just look at the average uptime with the cycle you use, and compare it to the average value used in the spreadsheet, the spreadsheet will undervalue it, particularly given the synergistic effects you can achieve when used properly

Wrong thread.

On the right-hand side of the screen, there's a scroll-down menu that includes weapon types. That will modulate the particular weapon type that it shows you.

Awesome, thanks. I'm just blind as a bat. ><

Why not mutilate?

Most likely because you benefit a lot more from the extra crit goa provides due to seal fate, also you might want to use deadly poison on both hands giving you the chance to spam envenom as long as snd + rupture are up.

I'm wondering about the T5 4/5 set bonus, for a long time this wasn't implemented on either rogue spreadsheet so is the current implementation really reliable? I'm currently sitting at 3 pieces of Deathmantle and 2 pieces Netherblade and both spreadsheets indicate that switching Netherblade legs to Deathmantle would be quite a significant upgrade despite the loss of 2/5 T4 set bonus and a lack of hit rating. This combined along with the loss of hit rating I've been taking lately is giving me creeps. Bloodsea Brigand's Vest and Skulker's Greaves (which seem to be eluding me) would nicely compensate for the loss but numbers I'm now seeing on the spreadsheets has me wondering.

Mechanics testing thread had a post containing some testing of this set bonus and based on this evidence free 25 energy (as I'm currently using 1s/5r cut SnD cycle, losing the T4 set bonus makes the DPS spreadsheet suggest using 3s/5r cut SnD) occasionally doesn't seem that big a bonus.

Never SS with daggers. The weapon speed and normalisation factors alone means that you do way less damage with a SS than a BS. SS also has less damage bonus than BS, and a much lower crit rate (due to imp backstab).

You *have* to use backstab, and have improved backstab, to make it remotely worthwhile using daggers.

The remaining two dagger spec rogues in our guild are planning to spec swords or fists as well.
Boss mechanics don't always make it easy to stand behind them : gruul / leotheras.
Other than playstyle, daggers just don't really seem to hold much difference vs swords currently.

Feature request for the sheet :
Could you add a "Gem total" in cell R78. So you have a reference for the number of gems you got in your gear, to activate the metagem.

No one can answer this?

Im currently trying to work out some things regarding envenom and atm it seems that under the best circumstances reagrding talents etc the dps gain from envenom over eviscerate wouldnt be enough to offset the loss of dps from not having instant poison or windfury on the MH.

However, this is offtopic for this thread and i apologise but ive been searching for an hour or so around the web and i need clarification on when the 15% bonus from improved eviscerate is applied - before or after the ap bonus? Also, is the 20% from vile poisons applied in the same manner to envenom?

nice catch there, didnt notice that :P

ok, and here's (one of) the reason(s) why mongoose calculation is messed up :P
basically on nextstat wf pps is calculated anew in cell O100
right now the formula there is "=WHEN(O$12>0;(O99+O97+O96)*0,2;0)*(I98+I99+I100))"
. "099 + ...." translates to "spechps + adjmhhps + extraatkps" which should probably be only adjmhhps now ... (or can wf proc of extra attacks?). if you change O100 to "=WHEN(O$12>0;O97*0,2;0)*(I98+I99+I100))" mongoose dps drops down to normal levels.
(my dps drop in the totals on the top now more or less matches the one in the wep_enchants page)

and again, a word of caution: I'm only butchering around there in the spreadsheet, as I don't know by far whats happening everywhere those changes might not be complete or they might have side effects.