antonmb

Nope, it shows #VALUE when I change to Windfury.

Then a -2374dps when swapping Bloodlust Brooch for Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality.

 

Trancer

So it seems 4 peice NB is still buggy ? I get net loss in dps after i enable 4 piece bonus, i played with it a bit and seems if i take off 2 peice bonus it displays correct + ammount from 4 piece.

 

Ellos

mmh.. got no problems with windfury main and deadly Poison off.

Ashtongue is buggy with swordspec at the moment, I've fixed this in .13 but I'm not ready yet with this version, I need a few to complet it and then we'll see how many bugs then are in there

 

Ellos

Give me some time, changing this is one of the things I wanted to do, but I need preliminary work to make this and I'm on this at the moment. But I think I can work on this in one of the next releases. Then I want to change nearly all procs. But I need time.

 

Ellos

The setboni from this set are awful. The problem is to implement then into a cycle and this is not easy, maybe it could work good with the mutilate cycle but I think with the over cycles those bonus will work awful and I have no Idea how to change (except reworking the cycles, but this would need huge time and will make many problems in the beginning)

 

Devil Warrior

I thought PPM items were being normalized in 2.2, so that haste doesn't increase proc rates on these types of items.

 

nilme

Source? Only info we have on this matter is the tests on the haste&ppm post that are not conclussive on the 2.1 vs 2.2 subject

 

Kuk

We recently had our first Talon of Azshara drop, and there was some kerfuffle on bids for it; in particular my guild leader and the master looter were surprised that I (as a dagger rogue) would want to bid on a sword that as yet had not dropped for established sword rogues in the guild.

Putting aside any issues regarding any player wishing to change their playstyle, I had a hard time convincing my guild leader that yes, swords is the preferred playstyle for PvE rogues, and that despite being well-geared as a dagger rogue, I would still switch spec if the opportunity presented itself (ie, when Talon of Azshara drops again and I am on top of the DKP chart).

Which raises the question, and the point of discussion I would like to explore: given that the generally accepted wisdom amongst well informed PvE rogues is that sword spec delivers better DPS than dagger spec, why is this so, is it intended, and what is the rationale?

To my understanding, much of the discrepancy in DPS between dagger and sword spec seems to arise from instant attacks, more specifically, from the frequency of instant attacks and the degree to which both specs benefit from the attack power bonus to instant attacks.

The frequency of instant attacks for sword spec would tend to be higher than dagger spec. Sinister strike costs less energy than backstab and can be performed more frequently than backstab. In addition, sword spec grants instant attacks whilst dagger spec grants higher crit.

To compliment this (perhaps absurdly), the speed set for calculating the attack power bonus is much higher for swords than for daggers (1.7 for daggers and 2.5 for swords, but I maybe off, that patch was a long time ago). As a result, I could MH Latro's Shifting Sword and still get a much higher attack power bonus than I would from, say Malchazeen (yes, I realise this is but one component of the damage from an instant, and that it is a specious example), by virtue only of the fact that one is a dagger and one is a sword.

Finally, windfury, being the MH weapon of buff of choice, also benefits swords more that dagger, seemingly for the same instant attack reasons detailed above. To summarise:

• The attack power bonus for instant attacks favours a slower normalised attack speed

• Swords are normalised to a slower attack speed for the purposes of instant attacks seemingly arbitrarily

• The nature of both sword spec and sinister strike result in a greater frequency of instant attacks, amplifying the effect of normalised weapon speed

• Windfury further escalates the issue

What is the rationale behind this? Why not have all weapons normalised to the same speed for instant attack power bonuses? As sword weapon DPS increases, the discrepancy will widen and the gap between the specs will be greater. It appears that Blizzard has created a set of circumstances where swords will be superior to daggers at the same item level. Do they realise this? If so, what reason do they have for doing so? It seems arbitrary.

 

• Vulajin

Your comparison regarding normalized weapon speeds would be valid if dagger and sword rogues used the same primary CP generating attack. However, since they do not, it is invalid. Here's some napkin math.

Sinister Strike grants sword rogues a base AP bonus of (AP Bonus DPS * 2.4) * 1.16, or (AP Bonus DPS * 2.784), if they have both Surprise Attacks and Aggression. Backstab grants dagger rogues (AP Bonus DPS * 1.7 * 1.5) * 1.3, or (AP Bonus DPS * 3.315), if they have both Surprise Attacks and Opporunity. Now, on top of that, add Improved Backstab. To do this, assume that you are hit-capped for special attacks and that you have 30% base crit. Let's also assume you have 5/5 Lethality and Relentless Earthstorm Diamond in either case.

Sinister Strike:
0% miss
5% dodge
28.5% crit
66.5% hit
Overall AP boost: (0.285 * 2.369 + 0.665) * 2.784 * AP Bonus DPS = 3.731 * AP Bonus DPS
AP boost/energy: 9.33% of AP DPS per energy

Backstab:
0% miss
5% dodge
57% crit
38% hit
Overall AP boost: (0.57 * 2.369 + 0.38) * 3.315 * AP Bonus DPS = 5.736 * AP Bonus DPS
AP boost/energy: 9.56% of AP DPS per energy

As to your last point about Windfury, since a recent hotfix, yellow attacks like Sinister Strike and Backstab are no longer able to cause Windfury procs. In addition, after patch 2.2 hits, extra swings generated by sword spec procs will also be incapable of causing Windfury procs.

The real area of advantage for sword spec versus daggers is caused by the offhand sword spec mechanic: when your offhand sword causes a sword spec proc, the extra attack granted is performed by your main hand at no penalty to your normal main hand swings. Thus, rather than a 5% increase in offhand swings, your main hand swings are actually increased by 5% times the ratio of your main hand speed to your offhand speed. For a setup like mine (2.7 main hand, 1.5 offhand), I get a 5% * (2.7 / 1.5) = 9% increase to my total main hand swings just from my offhand.

Were it not for PPM procs, this wouldn't be a big deal. However, PPM procs are designed to normalize to the base speed (or possibly hasted speed, but they almost definitely don't take extra attacks into account) of your weapon to guarantee a certain average number of procs per minute. With my fast offhand, slow main hand, and sword spec, I'm getting about 14% more main hand attacks per minute than the system expects me to get. So I'll experience 14% more of any procs that rely on the main hand, and about 7% more attacks overall for procs that can occur from either hand.

(edit) Sorry, finished my post a little prematurely and decided to come back to add some more. Alone, the PPM proc difference is not really enough to explain the entire difference. Personally, I think the real difference has nothing to do with normalized attack speeds or the fact of offhand sword spec proccing main hand attacks (although I do think that it would be more balanced if offhand sword spec procs caused offhand swings).

Simply, it is this: Backstab costs 60 energy. That's it. What does this mean? Two things. First, you perform fewer overall instant attacks. This hurts...guess what! Your effective PPM from procs! In addition, 60 energy for 1 CP means that your cycles will be much slower than a sword rogue's. While a sword rogue might run 1s/5r with nearly 100% SnD uptime and Rupture uptime, you'll be running something like 3s/5s/5r and managing great SnD uptime but mediocre Rupture uptime.

 

Ellos

Uptade
http://rogue.raidcal.com/

For Open Office users, make sure you select the don't use Macro Button just over the AEP to use this and the Upgrade funktion (the Option on the Right side, only show DPS Upgrades).

It is not as comfortable as the Upgrade Search but I hope it's okay.


Then I have 2 things. I'm thinking of dropping the 2 Item Upgrade sheets. The one over AEP and the other over copying Items and Change Equip.

And then build a new sheet which contains all DPS Upgrades for a selected slot. But before I'll do this I want to know if anyone uses one of the 2 sheets and if anyone would use the new sheet.

 

Baluchitherium4

I've been having an issue with the latest spreadsheets and gems. It shows a curvy line instead of the gem name. Any idea how I can fix this or what the problem is?

 

Prima

Can someone explain more in depth what exactly "snd cut" means? I read the FAQ but it didn't exactly give a good example.

 

Sleepyhead

If you have almost full energy and you are supposed to finish with SnD in order to keep your cycle running, the "snd cut" means, you should refresh the SnD even if it's still up instead of wasting energy or combopoints by waiting for it to run out.

 

Cyn

The BT trash haste rings (Band of Devastation) are not unique. However post patch, people probably wont want two :-\

 

Kytrarewn

The ijnstant attack power bonus from swords is 2.40, not 2.50. 1.8 still stings every time I think about my poor Empyrean Demolisher pre-1.8,

Windfury, also, is not quite as big a concern any further, given the fact that it no longer procs off of yellow attacks, and is un-normalized.

Sword spec is the main concern, since it procs a white attack that has, to date, been able to proc windfury and special affects. This would be about a 2% white-DPS difference, though (20% * 5% *2 weapons), but, again, only really affected white DPS with whatever speed bonuses you have running at the time in question.

Sword spec is the big difference between sword and dagger spec, but the others are Aggression (granted, it's somewhat weak compared to Opportunity, but it's also easier to get to), Lethality (Easier to get, even if you have a much lower instant-attack crit-rate with Swords and even Fists), and various minor assassination talents (Ruthlessness, Murder, poisons and/or imp evisc).

Another thing to take into consideration is that you have the CP gen necessary to eviscerate and/or envenom more frequently on mobs that can't be ruptured effectively (Void Reaver, Hydross, low-health T5 trashmobs), which allows for yet more DPS, as well as being able to more easily eviscerate during a blade flurry.

But let's look at it this way: With relatively even gear, my class-leader would backstab for 2600-3k crit with his Malchazeen. I sinister strike for 2000-2200 crit with my Talon of Azshara. Given that Blizzard has been intent on putting in 1.40 speed offhands, both swords and daggers, his backstab would need to crit for 3200-3400 at the top-end, not including the white damage bonus from Sword spec, positional returns for small adds, etc, to be equivalent to the sinister strikes I've been getting (again, that's discounting the effect of Imp Backstab, which is very significant, raising his crit-rate to ~2x mine raidbuffed).

Finally: Swords are far better in PvP. More talents available for PvP viability in Combat, with swords generating more CP, lacking the positional requirement of daggers, and not being *as* killed by high-resilience targets makes it a win.

At present, other than having gotten lucky with dagger drops but not sword drops (ie. 3 Solarian daggers or Malchazeens, but not a single damn Spiteblade or Hope Ender, even), there's really no reason to be Daggers instead of swords, other than perhaps "Well, our fury warriors don't want daggers at all anyway), which ceases to be an issue once yon have Al'ar's loot table on farm).

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Ellos

I'll see, maybe I'll make it different. This was the easy way

 

Ellos

Screenshot please, I've got no idea what you could mean.

 

Baluchitherium4

Now it just doesn't give me the name of the gem at all. I can see in the cells that the gem is being accounted for...it just doesn't make the name of the gem visible.

I'm trying to figure out how to take a screenshot to post it.

 

Zurgat

In 220.13 i've put "=(uhit-H75)+H73" into cell "S6". so it'll show the hit rating displayed ingame on your character sheet.
As was suggested by someone earlier.

I don't see any real bugs in 220.13 yer, though hit rating seems to be very undervalued in the AEP calculations ?

To my knowledge a swordspec proc triggered by the offhand, resets your mainhand swing timer. So i recommend you look into that a bit more.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

songster

That changed a couple of patches ago, and was widely reported on these boards and the official forums. So I recommend you read both a little more :-)

 

Zurgat

So much to do so little time!
Exellent dps boost from that then, and WF nerfed.. so it sort of balances out.

Thanks for the correction either way.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Ellos

I'll look at the Hit, maybe I'll change this in a next version (which maybe needs some time, because I don't have anything to do on it for now).

Which AEP do you mean. The macro? I don't think it's undervalued, I haven't changed there anything. On the other AEP, maybe, also hast is high undervalued, but I don't see a bug at the moment, maybe later. It was hard enough to make it work again

 

Shurik

Edit:

Could you add Ring of the Shadow Deeps? It's a CF2 heroic drop und should therefore be taken into account. Thanks.

Success isn't a result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire.
- Arnold H. Glasow

 

dinesh

I don't understand why you would add +H73 to that formula. You're basically double-counting your +hit socket bonus, because uhit already includes that cell in it's summation. I can confirm that my armory hit rating does not match what is returned by that formula, but it does match "uhit-H75".

 

Graecus

I'm a fan of the sheet you use to copy Items over and shows the differing DPS via Copy button (if that's the one you are referring to). I typically enter all my gear into the sheet, then starting with MH, cycle through all the gear and [COPY] anything that increases my buffed dps. I do that for all gear, then space it out and sort it DESC to see what the largest upgrade currently available to me is. Helps me plan out gear choices and not step on other's toes when loot drops.

Precision in Paradise