Originally Posted by Apsalar

Latito, you are forgetting one thing. A single non-dagger weapon specced rogue will have 4 or 5 points in vile or imp poison. Now that probably isn't enough for a pure sword specc to overtake fist/swords, but it is most likely enough to level the playing field.

Originally Posted by Latito

Fair. 5/5 Vile poisons would give you +20% dmg to the 5% of your overall dmg coming from deadly poison.. which works out to 1% more dps. Not bad I suppose.. although that won't scale with gear. Once again, this is really just about nit-picking the details.

Originally Posted by Spades

That's shamans. The Windfury Totem has no cooldown whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

2) Was it determined that crit actually does get 0.1% additional? I thought I saw some data that suggested that weapon skill didn't noticably increase crit at all beyond the expected 0.04 per skill?

Originally Posted by Gogge

I'm not so sure of that, from some simple testing it seems that there is a cooldown of about half the weapon speed (link to old rogue sheet thread).

Originally Posted by Gogge

I'm not so sure of that, from some simple testing it seems that there is a cooldown of about half the weapon speed (link to old rogue sheet thread).

Originally Posted by Latito

Armory me. Its nuts.. dmg is insane.

5% crit vs 5% extra attack
Think about it this way:
Assume you have Rogue-A and Rogue-B. Rogue-A has almost no hit and misses 25% of the time. 5% dodge, 25% glance, 30% crit, 15% left over for hits. Rogue-B is better geared and has 0% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 30% crit, 40% left over for crit. Now for some math. Assume both are doing 100 dps to make calculations easy. Crit rates are before spec.

Rogue-A:
First off, his base dmg would be 0 (misses) + 0 (dodges) + 17.5 (25 * 0.7 glance) + 60 (30 * 2 for crit) + 15 (hit) = 92.5 dps.
Suppose they spec'd into fist or dagger and got 5% more crit. They'd now have 25% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 35% crit, 10% hit. Basically, we take 5 from hit and turn it into crit. This nets Rogue-A 5 more dmg per 100 base dps, letting him go from 92.5 to 97.5, a 5.4% increase.
Suppose instead they spec'd into swords. 5% of the LANDED attacks would have a chance to SWING again. This means that for the 70% of attacks landed (25 glance, 30 crit, 15 hit) he's have a chance to do another 92.5 dmg. This works out to an increase of 0.7 * 92.5 * 0.05 = 3.24 more dmg. Ouch. Now, that is a bit biased since OH attacks which normally hit for 75% damage trigger MH swings, but I'll get into that later.

Rogue-B:
First off, his base dmg would be 0 (misses) + 0 (dodges) + 17.5 (glance) + 60 (30 * 2 crit) + 40 (hit) = 117.5 dps. This makes sense, the 25% of Rogue-A's attacks which missed are now hits for Rogue-B.
Suppose they spec'd into fist or dagger and got 5% more crit. They'd now have 0% miss, 5% dodge, 25% glance, 35% crit, 35% hit.
This nets Rogue-B 5 more dmg per 100 base dps, letting him go from 117.5 to 122.5, a 4.3% increase.
Suppose instead they spec'd into swords. 5% of landed attacks would swing again. This means that for the 95% of his attacks which are landing, he's have a chance to do 117.5 more dmg. This works out to 5.58 more dmg. Nice! And remember, this still isn't including the fact that smaller OH attacks proc large MH swings.

Conclusions thus far:
Swords scale much better with hit rating. Sword Spec requires that you land as many attacks as possible so that you have a chance to get your 5% proc. Thanks to crits, those procs can do even more damage (hopefully enough to overcome any misses you still have, and the glancing penalty).
Fist/Dagger spec just adds a flat amount of damage to your attacks based on your weapon dps. Having a higher hit rating or crit rating do NOT increase the damage boost from fist/dagger spec, its always going to be a flat 5 more dmg per 100 dps (attack base damage + attack power bonus.. before glance/hit/miss/crit roll).


Sword Spec mechanics more in-depth:
First, lets assume a 1.5spd offhand and a 2.6spd mainhand. This represents [Merc] Gladiator weapons. If you've got a 2.7 or 1.4 speed you'll get an even bigger boost.
Second, I'll be assuming (for easy calculations) a 100 dps weapon in both hands. It really doesn't matter what the dps of the weapon is, so long as MH and OH are the same.
Third, haste increase the number of MH attacks more than the OH due to combat potency. You will get an identical (percentage) increase in WHITE hits from haste, however more OH hits mean more combat potency means more Sinister Strikes.
Fourth, I'll be roughly modeling a rogue who has everything from Kara, Gruul and Mag. SSC and TE don't include too many HUGE upgrades since T5 is basically for Mutilate crit-junkies. Swords spec with gear a lot, so if your still rocking greens, don't expect this to be necessarily the same for you.. but really, who cares how to maximize dps in greens? Maximize it by getting new gear.

Ok... Offhand starts at 1.5 speed, goes to 1.15 with SnD. Add in either a DST or TSD proc, some mongoose procs, perhaps a Haste pot, Blade Flurry or Bloodlust and you'll average say 1.00 speed. I know I'm usally at either 1.15 or 0.85 speed, pending if I have any sort of haste-type thing proc'd or not. 1.00 speed means 15 energy every 5 seconds. I assume you have 308 hit rating (or really close).

Now, number of attacks per hand which can proc a sword spec (aren't a WF or SS proc themselves.. ie your auto attacks and SS's)
OH:
1.00 speed, this is pretty easy.. 60 attacks a minute
MH:
1.73 speed = 34.6 a minute
SS:
13 energy a second (10 base + 3 from cpots) = (13 * 60) / 40 = 19.5 Sinister stricks a minute
34.6 + 19.5 = 54 MH attacks a minute.

This means that in a minute, you'll get roughly 114 attacks, of which 53% are OH, 47% are MH. 5% of those will be dodged, no big deal.. SS, and white is dodged the dame.

Now, your OH which is rated for 100 dps at 1.5 speed will be hitting for 150 on average (forget AP for now). This gets multiplied by 0.75 for the OH penalty, so you actually hit for 112.5. The 2.6 speed MH will be hitting for 260. Now the math gets a bit more fun.

OH: 60 / 114 = 53%
MH: 35 / 114 = 30%
SS: 19 / 114 = 17%

Your average attack will hit for (0.53 * 112.5) + (0.30 * 260) + (0.17 * [260 + 98]) = 59.625 + 78 + 60.86 = 198.485 damage per swing, pre-crit. Each of these 198 damage swings have a 5% chance to proc another swing which will do 260 damage pre-crit. So..

198.5 * 114 attacks = 22627 dmg per minute
260 * 114 * 0.05 = 1482 dmg per minute
1482 / 22627 = 0.0655.. Thats a 6.55% damage boost from Sword Spec, which beats the hell out of the 5.58% I quoted earlier, and slaughters the 4.3% boost from Fist spec crit bonus.

OH Sword Proc'ing MH attacks
Now lets do a bit more analysis on the OH sword proc'ing MH attacks.
Thats a 112.5 dmg swing proc'ing a 260 damage swing. So if you average it out, thats 260 * 0.05 added to each OH swing. thats 13 damage added, giving you a 125.5 dmg OH swing on average, good for a woping 11.5% increase. DAMN. And remember, crits scale perfectly here.. your OH can crit just as much as the MH, so the damage boosts effectively cancel each other out when turned into percentages.

"your OH can crit just as much as your MH". What if that weren't true? What if your MH crit 5% more. Lets dig deeper.

Fist MH, Sword OH
Assume that 65% of your damage comes from white attacks, 25% from SS, 5% rupture and 5% deadly poison. Thats a reasonably typical fight. White sometimes is more like low-60's, SS high-20's.. whatever. This means that 10% of your damage is independant of weapon or crit rate, just static damage (DP) or dmg boosted only by AP (Rupture).

25% of your damage is purely from your MH (SS)
65% of your damage is from combined MH and OH white swings. Since we're assuming equal dps weapons, your MH should do 100 dps, your OH 75. Or in fractions, 4/7ths vs 3/7ths of the damge. This splits the white damage 37% MH, 28% OH.
Totals:
25 + 37 = 62% damage coming from MH
28% coming from OH
10% independant of weapon.

So of the damage which relates to weapon spec:
62 / 90 = 69% based on MH attacks
28 / 90 = 31% based on OH attacks

Since crit will scale pretty much the same, Fist spec with just a Fist MH would give you 3.45% dps boost (0.69 * 5%).

Think about swords for a for a minute. OH attacks get a 11.5% boost from sword spec, MH gets screwed actually since a SS swing will proc a regular swing (no SS bonuses).

So.. Fist MH and Sword OH?

The 62% of your damage based on MH attacks get a 5% boost = 0.62 * 0.05 = 3.1%
The 31% of your damage based on OH attacks get a 11.5% boost = 0.31 * 0.115 = 3.6%
The 10% of your damage not based on weapons get no boost.

Summary
Thats a total of 6.7% boost from a Fist/Sword combo.
Swords I said earlier get a 6.55% boost, but that was only on the 90% of damage which is weapon-dependant, so its really a 5.9% boost
Fists are lagging behind around a 4% boost.

Originally Posted by Nighthaunter

Hi, I'm a long time user of the DPS spreadsheet as a guide rather than a be all and end all.

Anyway, I was looking at the Crystalforged Trinket: Thottbot World of Warcraft: Crystalforged Trinket

I can't see in the Trinket sheet the: Equip: +7 Weapon Damage.

Is this modeled in the spreadsheet? or I'm just missing it altogether, I did try searching for it via the Ring enchant; +2 Weapon Damage, but that didn't work for me.

Originally Posted by Dreshla

To those who now run and maintain the spreadsheet, thank you for all your hard work! IF it is possible to add in cycles that "waste" 20 energy every 10 seconds (feint) that would be helpful.