The problem is, if Shiv had comparable DPE to Sinister Strike, it would be kinda overpowered in PvP since you could Shiv spam forever, dealing as much damage as if you were Sinister Striking and getting poison procs on every single one and being able to do it regardless of being disarmed or not.
1 - Lose the Shiv, completely.
2 - Get your 1s/5r cycle down, and stick with it, except during AR.
3 - Stop feinting. If your MT (and, in the case of Gruul, OT) can't keep up with you, obviously you can't do this. But it is a rarity in my experience - either you are uber-l337, or someone will need to talk with your tanks about it, because they are going to really threat cap you in later fights. You shouldn't need to do more than vanish partway through the Gruul fight.
Lately I've considered speccing "back" to mutilate as our raid progress is not that demanding anyway and I still want to be able to do some PVP. I then composed a build that looks pretty much like this.
Then I noticed that - according to this spreadsheet (.13 version) - I would do less DPS with improved SnD than without it (around 15 less).
Is this a bug or do I miss something important?
Here are some numbers from my mutilate respec, in BT.
Naj'entus 1549 dps
Shade of Akama 2228 dps
Teron Gorefiend 1638 dps (I was smoking dmg, then got marked for death)
Gurtogg Bloodboil 1466dps (no fel rage, and I may be a bit too cautious threatwise)
We did a reliquary run, but our interrupt rotation wasnt smooth, then disconnect issues caused us to not complete reliquary)
Essence of Suffering 2051 dps
I had a lot of fun, it was quite a bit more entertaining than combat daggers. I had a 5500 mut crit on essence of desire, a mob with 0 armor once sunders are on, even got a nice 4831 envenom crit during the night. If you can afford the gold, and your guild is in farm mode, I would recommend trying it out. I ran with a enh shaman, a warrior, and sometimes a hunter throughout the night, only using major agi pots, food, and scrolls for consumables.
I haven't had much time recently to search for this, but I'm just wondering does the modelling for Dragonspine Trophy in the latest release include the "25 second hidden CD" that's currently on the PTR?
And also, has haste been changed to PTR values on it?
i dont know whether your formulas are wrong or you are missing something important out there but my rupture does flat average damage of ~1600 while envenom does average of ~3400 (5/5 Vile poisons, T5 2xSet bonus, 3% bigger crits from meta gem, 20% more damage from nature attack - debuff from enhancement shammy's stormstrike), max envenom hit is 5600 for me with cold blood. Rupture lasts 16 sec while i can easily hit 2 envenoms during that time(in spamming envenom mode) and my crit rate is fairly low, which means that with higher crit (improved leader of the pack) and T5 4 set bonus (chance on finishing move to cost no energy) envenom will leave rupture far away in dps dust as it already does so anyway.
I haven't had much time recently to search for this, but I'm just wondering does the modelling for Dragonspine Trophy in the latest release include the "25 second hidden CD" that's currently on the PTR?
And also, has haste been changed to PTR values on it?
Thanks
Forget that I found the answer
Does this mean, even with the haste nerf and the 25 sec internal CD on DST, it's still the best Rogue trinket in the game? :o
Sorry, for interrupting you in your discussion.
I have a question about Tsunami Talisman vs. Warp-Spring Coil.
How was the TT. forumla was changed, and what you think about TT. vs. WSC.
I get wit my gear about 5 dps more with TT. in .12 it was about 2Dps less then WSC.
1 - Lose the Shiv, completely.
2 - Get your 1s/5r cycle down, and stick with it, except during AR.
3 - Stop feinting. If your MT (and, in the case of Gruul, OT) can't keep up with you, obviously you can't do this. But it is a rarity in my experience - either you are uber-l337, or someone will need to talk with your tanks about it, because they are going to really threat cap you in later fights. You shouldn't need to do more than vanish partway through the Gruul fight.
I usually feint off the start because our tanks don't have a lot of +hit, so I generally assume they've missed the first couple hits. Hopefully as we progress we'll get some tanking +hit/+skill items and they can improve themselves in that area (if that really makes much of a difference... heh)
however thank you for your input, I've pulled shiv from my bars and did pretty well last night, pulling near 600 dps on Voidreaver with 250 arcane resist and no group-buffers (2 non-BM hunters and a warlock), and pulling 660 dps with a DPS time of 80% in a buffed group on lurker (shaman, warrior, druid). I'm not sure why my damage is so low still, but I assume the lurker fight isn't exactly ideal situations for melee (I do attack during spouts but, between repositioning, whirls and attacking the islands, there's a lot of time where I cannot or have nothing to attack)
Anyway, thanks again for both your inputs
"Such ... is the state of life, that none are happy but by the anticipation of change; the change itself is nothing; when we have made it, the next wish is to change again."
i dont know whether your formulas are wrong or you are missing something important out there but my rupture does flat average damage of ~1600 while envenom does average of ~3400 (5/5 Vile poisons, T5 2xSet bonus, 3% bigger crits from meta gem, 20% more damage from nature attack - debuff from enhancement shammy's stormstrike), max envenom hit is 5600 for me with cold blood. Rupture lasts 16 sec while i can easily hit 2 envenoms during that time(in spamming envenom mode) and my crit rate is fairly low, which means that with higher crit (improved leader of the pack) and T5 4 set bonus (chance on finishing move to cost no energy) envenom will leave rupture far away in dps dust as it already does so anyway.
Perhaps YOUR formulas are wrong? perhaps YOU are missing something?
Yes, you have stacked pretty much everything in favour of using envenom. Even so, I fail to see how you would be AVERAGING 3400 damage per envenom. I could see an average crit getting that kind of number..
Remember that a full stack of deadly poison with vile poisons is roughly 90 dps. Also, in order to be able to spam Envenom like that, you'll need dual-deadly poison instead of WF. Thats another dps hit - not so much if your getting GoA I suppose.. especially as a Mutilate build.. but still a hit. Also, Envenom is 35 energy, rupture is 25. Yet another hit for Mr. no-combat-potency.
Now for rupture.. how are you only getting 1600 dmg out of a rupture? I looked up your armory.. your AP isn't stupid low. Do you not raid with any feral druids? Rupture should be ticking for average of 250 in your AP, with some decent procs and/or an enhancement shaman you would be near 300 per tick. 8 ticks.. thats 2k to 2400 - nearly 100 dmg per energy. Even with your (imo) absurdly high estimate of 3400 dmg per envenom on average, thats only a few dmg per energy higher than rupture, and you didn't take into acount the deadly poison loss which would lower your envenom attacks by a good 450-500.
I'm not really using solid math here.. just giving you rough numbers from what I see in raids and general tendancies and I'm trying to be as generous as I can to mutilate.. but I just don't think you're looking at the whole picture. Perhaps someone can repost the (more scientific) math done on Envenom vs Rupture to back me up here.
Sorry if I'm coming off a bit strong or offensive here. I guess I just react when someone uses "I just got a big crit with move X, so it must be better than move Y" as proof that months of theorycrafting are wrong. Envenom will greatly sacrifice your dot damage to give you a high-max-dmg instant attack. It is a fun move but overall it just costs too damn much.
Ps. If you're hitting 2 envenoms in 16 seconds, you're likely hurting your dps. You have 160 energy to spend in 16 seconds. Envenom is 35 energy, assume both envenoms give you 25 energy back. Thats 20 energy cost for the finishers, 140 left. Assume both proc you an extra combo point. 140 energy is 2 mutilates, assume both have at least one crit. That gives you a pair of 4 point envenoms.. assuming EVERYTHING goes your way.. and you are able to stack 4+ deadlies up within that timeframe. Instead you could of had a rupture ticking and an evis (you used 2 finishers.. I get to use 2 finishers :P).
If you assumed you started the 16 seconds with 5 combo points.. just shift the timeframe a bit and make sure you end with 5 combo points so the cycle is repeatable.
The problem is, if Shiv had comparable DPE to Sinister Strike, it would be kinda overpowered in PvP since you could Shiv spam forever, dealing as much damage as if you were Sinister Striking and getting poison procs on every single one and being able to do it regardless of being disarmed or not.
Except that if you were adding PvP utility, you'd be losing IP off the hand (I'd guess you'd probably run Wound, since it has a damage component), which reduces the DPE down again to a more manageable level. As for the disarm argument, we already CAN do this for "almost" as much damage (should we use a damaging poison on our offhand), so that's not realy a major issue, in my eyes.
I usually feint off the start because our tanks don't have a lot of +hit, so I generally assume they've missed the first couple hits. Hopefully as we progress we'll get some tanking +hit/+skill items and they can improve themselves in that area (if that really makes much of a difference... heh)
however thank you for your input, I've pulled shiv from my bars and did pretty well last night, pulling near 600 dps on Voidreaver with 250 arcane resist and no group-buffers (2 non-BM hunters and a warlock), and pulling 660 dps with a DPS time of 80% in a buffed group on lurker (shaman, warrior, druid). I'm not sure why my damage is so low still, but I assume the lurker fight isn't exactly ideal situations for melee (I do attack during spouts but, between repositioning, whirls and attacking the islands, there's a lot of time where I cannot or have nothing to attack)
Anyway, thanks again for both your inputs
Why are you using AR on VR? Yes.. I am aware that the poundings are arcane, but the majority of strats are "melee stays in, chain heal + seal of light + imp LotP + circle of healing them". The more risky strat would be having your melee run out on the poundings.. risky because you can take 6k spikes from those balls, but in general less overall dmg taken. I dunno.. if you can kill him that way I guess thats what works for your guild :P.
Lurker isn't a great fight, but make the most of it - don't run to platforms. Melee should be killing the inner circle adds. Or does your guild chain-sheep them the entire fight? Spout really shouldn't affect your dps, and whirl only takes you out for a few seconds every 15?
Rogues are definately a class that is affected by buffs a lot. My dps can vary by ~40% pending which buffs I'm getting.. and thats coming from a rogue who always gets at least ONE buff (warrior or feral at minimum). If I went from a warlock group to an Enhancement sham + warrior + feral group.. could easily be a 50-60% jump in dps.
Just make sure you keep Snd up, do your best to keep rupture up. Your hit rating is ok, but not spectacular so you might have some energy problems. Worst case fall back to a 2s/5r or 3s/5r.
Perhaps YOUR formulas are wrong? perhaps YOU are missing something?
Yes, you have stacked pretty much everything in favour of using envenom. Even so, I fail to see how you would be AVERAGING 3400 damage per envenom. I could see an average double-crit getting that kind of number.. maybe even a MH-crit, OH-hit situation. And lets face it - a move which has two attacks and is affected by a ton of modifiers.. counting the 5600 max as "it must do high dps!" really doesn't mean much.
Remember that a full stack of deadly poison with vile poisons is roughly 90 dps. Also, in order to be able to spam Envenom like that, you'll need dual-deadly poison instead of WF. Thats another dps hit - not so much if your getting GoA I suppose.. especially as a Mutilate build.. but still a hit. Also, Envenom is 35 energy, rupture is 25. Yet another hit for Mr. no-combat-potency.
Now for rupture.. how are you only getting 1600 dmg out of a rupture? I looked up your armory.. your AP isn't stupid low. Do you not raid with any feral druids? Rupture should be ticking for average of 250 in your AP, with some decent procs and/or an enhancement shaman you would be near 300 per tick. 8 ticks.. thats 2k to 2400 - nearly 100 dmg per energy. Even with your (imo) absurdly high estimate of 3400 dmg per envenom on average, thats only a few dmg per energy higher than rupture, and you didn't take into acount the deadly poison loss which would lower your envenom attacks by a good 450-500.
I'm not really using solid math here.. just giving you rough numbers from what I see in raids and general tendancies and I'm trying to be as generous as I can to mutilate.. but I just don't think you're looking at the whole picture. Perhaps someone can repost the (more scientific) math done on Envenom vs Rupture to back me up here.
Sorry if I'm coming off a bit strong or offensive here. I guess I just react when someone uses "I just got a big crit with move X, so it must be better than move Y" as proof that months of theorycrafting are wrong. Envenom will greatly sacrifice your dot damage to give you a high-max-dmg instant attack. It is a fun move but overall it just costs too damn much.
Ps. If you're hitting 2 envenoms in 16 seconds, you're likely hurting your dps. You have 160 energy to spend in 16 seconds. Envenom is 35 energy, assume both envenoms give you 25 energy back. Thats 20 energy cost for the finishers, 140 left. Assume both proc you an extra combo point. 140 energy is 2 mutilates, assume both have at least one crit. That gives you a pair of 4 point envenoms.. assuming EVERYTHING goes your way.. and you are able to stack 4+ deadlies up within that timeframe. Instead you could of had a rupture ticking and an evis (you used 2 finishers.. I get to use 2 finishers :P).
If you assumed you started the 16 seconds with 5 combo points.. just shift the timeframe a bit and make sure you end with 5 combo points so the cycle is repeatable.
I agree with your general point about Envenom, but I think at the start of your post you got some wires crossed and confused Envenom with Mutilate.
Originally Posted by AniwenofLothar
however thank you for your input, I've pulled shiv from my bars and did pretty well last night, pulling near 600 dps on Voidreaver with 250 arcane resist and no group-buffers (2 non-BM hunters and a warlock), and pulling 660 dps with a DPS time of 80% in a buffed group on lurker (shaman, warrior, druid). I'm not sure why my damage is so low still, but I assume the lurker fight isn't exactly ideal situations for melee (I do attack during spouts but, between repositioning, whirls and attacking the islands, there's a lot of time where I cannot or have nothing to attack)
No two bones about it, that is startingly low. Out of curiosity, what are you using to measure your DPS? Recount? WWS? SW Stats? KombatStats? I find that the numbers can vary pretty widely, but generally Recount and WWS are most accurate.
Let's start with the basics. Are you keeping Slice and Dice up as close to 100% of the time as you can? I recommended the 1s/5r cycle to you, but I also mentioned that I run 2s/5r myself. My rule of thumb for that choice is that, even in the situation where I get really low combat potency procs and no Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes, I want Slice and Dice to drop for at most 1-3 seconds. Any more is unacceptable. Last night on Morogrim I was kicking myself because once on the run back from a grave, I opted to build up to 5 CP and Rupture before refreshing Slice, which had already fallen. I lost about 20 seconds of Slice time, and the difference between me and the other rogue was about 40 DPS at the end (compared to maybe 20 DPS usually).
If you're running a cycle with a higher Slice coefficient (3s/5r or higher, I'd say), then you should probably start the fight (or any time you have to interrupt your cycle for a non-negligible duration) with a 1s or 2s to make sure you get it up as soon as possible and that it won't fall off later.
First thanks for the job on this spreadsheet it's helping me a ton since it was created : )
And now to my question...
Did a search about it, but couldn't find anything. But, in the last version i'm finding GoA totem + DP MH IP OH to be superior or almost equal to WF MH DP OH. The difference with my gear and build makes GoA variant win by almost 1 DPS (not much, but when trying to get best of the best it's important!). Someone else has the same results?
I know WF took a good nerf, but wasn't expecting GoA to be better or equal.
Gear
Netherblade Facemask (Relentless Earthstorm Diamond/Shifting Tanzanite)
Worgen Claw Necklace
Shoulderpads of the Stranger (Glinting Noble Topaz)
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest (Glinting Noble Topazx2/Shifting Nightseye)
Drape of the Dark Reavers
Shard-Bound Bracers (Glinting Noble Topaz)
Deathmantle Handguards
Belt of Deep Shadows (Glinting Noble Topaz)
Netherblade Breeches
Edgewalker Longboots (Bold Ornate Ruby/Glinting Noble Topaz)
Ring of a Thousand Marks
Garona's Signet Ring
Bloodlust Brooch
Dragonspine Trophy
Talon of Azshara
Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
Veteran's Musket
7 melee, no resto-shaman, 5 melee in a group with 1 priest CoHing them, 2 rogues with AR with renews/pom/cloak/potions/stones to survive.
Lurker isn't a great fight, but make the most of it - don't run to platforms. Melee should be killing the inner circle adds. Or does your guild chain-sheep them the entire fight? Spout really shouldn't affect your dps, and whirl only takes you out for a few seconds every 15?
We polymorph 2 of 3 adds and keep one tanked (by our paladin off-tank). He's stunned/disarmed (by our warrior main-tank) for the majority of his life. I do admit that my whirl-timing is not perfect and I try to be safe vs. need healing. 5 seconds before whirl-timer is done I strafe out with 0 energy.
Rogues are definitely a class that is affected by buffs a lot.
yeah, my damage sucked on the trash in TK and on VR. The rogue running full damage gear and in the group had about 200-300 more dps than me and the other rogue in AR (but I did wear a pretty dress).
Just make sure you keep Snd up, do your best to keep rupture up. Your hit rating is ok, but not spectacular so you might have some energy problems. Worst case fall back to a 2s/5r or 3s/5r.
w/ the 2pc bonus from NB, I use 1/5, rarely 2/5 and n ever more/higher. I also rarely use Evisc, only during ADRush and only with 5/5 (which I will only do if rupture is still up)
what are you using to measure your DPS?
WWS - Wow Web Stats (anonymous, my toon is Jion)
This was last night on our second lurker kill (4th VR kill)
Are you keeping Slice and Dice up as close to 100% of the time as you can?
Yes, but only during times when I know I'll be attacking the mob for at least half the duration of the SnD (i.e. if we have a spout, it will be up, but if I know a whirl is coming, I'll hold off until after it and may be sitting without it up for a short while - I also don't always use it on the first add I attack, more so that I can get a kidney shot off quickly, and then put SnD up)
Our guild seems to have always had a low damage output, but even when high-dps toons from more-progressed guilds join in, or I join more-progressed guilds in pugs (like on Kazzak once), I find myself in a non-buffed group yet able to match if not beat other rogues in damage even if they have better gear... At times I'm not sure if we DO have low DPS or not, but every time I compare with out of guild numbers, we always come up short in every department; we're not a hardcore MUST RAID MUST BE THE BEST guild (as is apparent by our boss-status), but I'd still like to not suck and... while I think 994 dps on Gruul was a great number for my gear (esp. since the spreadsheet had me at a maximum of like, 1100 at the time), I haven't been able to get back up to that number since then despite numerous upgrades. I did respec and went from Vindicator's Brand/Latros to Merciless Claw/Sword, but I noticed an immediate DPS increase from doing this (as should be expected).
I'll work on keeping SnD up more - I suppose it's true that 5 seconds of SnD is pretty valuable since that's basically an extra swing with my main hand and 2 with my offhand, so another potential 2k damage and 30 energy as well as windfury and poison procs...
Thanks again!
"Such ... is the state of life, that none are happy but by the anticipation of change; the change itself is nothing; when we have made it, the next wish is to change again."
On several spreadsheets a 1s/5r cycle is recommended for me and my combat sword build.
The only thing that i dont like about the 1s/5r cycle is that with combat potency I sometimes am left with almost max energy and a few seconds of SnD time so i either waste energy or SS and have a 2 pt SnD which ultimately messes with the timing and cp generation even further. Also, I'm beginning to not like ruthlessness because its just not reliable enough and creates inconsistency with my CP cycle. Im considering dropping those 3 points and gettin 3/5 vile poisons or imp poisons.
Would dropping my 3 pts in Ruthlessness for Vile or Imp poisons cure this inconsistency? Would it be a big hit in dps or perhaps increase it?
Most people would consider dropping 3/3 Evis (since it isn't used on any standard boss rotation really) for Vile Poisons..
Also, the spreadsheets probably recommend 1s/5r CUT. The cut means that as soon as you have a combo point, refresh SnD. Even if you still have a few seconds left on SnD, refresh it. Sure it "wastes" some time.. but you maintain 100% rupture and SnD uptime without wasting energy.
I run into the same problem myself sometimes.. especially when my Haste pot just went on CD . Just don't waste any energy, maintain 100% snd and rupture uptime and your set. You'd need a good bit of extra energy to justify putting an evis in there. I tend to pop in an extra SS even while I have 5 combo points already when waiting for rupture to tick off. If I'm at ~60-70 energy, have 1-2 seconds left on rupture and 5 combo points.. you essentially get a free extra SS.
AniwenofLothar: It looks like you may be a little too weary of the Whirls; my DPS uptime is generally significantly higher. This may be the next place to look for in terms of areas to improve.
Here's a WWS parse of our most recent Lurker Kill: Wow Web Stats
Here are some possible areas that could explain this difference:
1) You can avoid the whirls just by not being at the absolute inner edge of the platform - you do'nt have to be at the extreme outside. I avoid them fairly easily by moving out 2 seconds before the timer says it's coming, and you can move back in before the animation is fully complete - I believe the 'strike' itself only occurs at the beginning of his anim.
2) You can dps Lurker during spouts by jumping to the inside water rather than the outside
10% uptime difference is a LOT of damage. In addition, you should be able to Adrenaline Rush at least twice during this battle, and Blade Flurry ~5 times. You only recorded 1 AR and 2 BFs. Despite a lower dps uptime, you had 17 S+Ds, compared to my 14.
These are just the random things I spotted that may be able to help - hope I don't sound too much like an EJ.
Most people would consider dropping 3/3 Evis (since it isn't used on any standard boss rotation really) for Vile Poisons..
Also, the spreadsheets probably recommend 1s/5r CUT. The cut means that as soon as you have a combo point, refresh SnD. Even if you still have a few seconds left on SnD, refresh it. Sure it "wastes" some time.. but you maintain 100% rupture and SnD uptime without wasting energy.
I run into the same problem myself sometimes.. especially when my Haste pot just went on CD . Just don't waste any energy, maintain 100% snd and rupture uptime and your set. You'd need a good bit of extra energy to justify putting an evis in there. I tend to pop in an extra SS even while I have 5 combo points already when waiting for rupture to tick off. If I'm at ~60-70 energy, have 1-2 seconds left on rupture and 5 combo points.. you essentially get a free extra SS.
I picked up the 3/3 evis because I use it quite frequently on trash and in pvp. I also have imp kick for pvp reasons, just to avoid having to respec each time I want to do arena. So yes, I'm sacrificing a few points for some more pvp versatility.
I guess to get more raw with my question, is Ruthlessness quantifiable? If so, what quantifiable dps does it add?
Reduces the energy needed to sustain a specific cycle by a specific amount - it basically makes some cycles much more able to be sustained. You can map your energy/second pretty reliably (over the long term, of course) based on your hit rating (CPot) and talents. Once you have how much energy you regenerate in a time period, and you know how many combo points you need to generate in a set time to maintain a cycle, you can see whether or not a cycle is feasible to maintain regularly or not.
In other words - it may not do direct DPS itself, but it opens options to higher DPS cycles.
The spreadsheet itself answers exactly what that means in DPS terms.
Yea, I just checked out the spreadsheet and the difference seems to be around 10-12 dps in favor of Ruthlessness over 3/5 vile poisons. I guess I'm just old school and this new fangled combat potency has thrown me for a loop, as far as energy cycles are concerned. The 1s/5r cycle seems a bit tighter to maintain than what I'm used to from back before expansion. (3s/5s/5r)
I'd also like to point out that Shiv has a chance to proc an additional IP on top of its forced proc. It usually doesn't affect the outcome of SS vs. Shiv but if someone needs me to show them some evidence, I will.
09/20/07, 12:32 AM
. Just don't waste any energy, maintain 100% snd and rupture uptime and your set. You'd need a good bit of extra energy to justify putting an evis in there. I tend to pop in an extra SS even while I have 5 combo points already when waiting for rupture to tick off. If I'm at ~60-70 energy, have 1-2 seconds left on rupture and 5 combo points.. you essentially get a free extra SS.
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