[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet - Page 32

Musa · 09/21/07, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Latito

Most people would consider dropping 3/3 Evis (since it isn't used on any standard boss rotation really) for Vile Poisons..

Also, the spreadsheets probably recommend 1s/5r CUT. The cut means that as soon as you have a combo point, refresh SnD. Even if you still have a few seconds left on SnD, refresh it. Sure it "wastes" some time.. but you maintain 100% rupture and SnD uptime without wasting energy.

I run into the same problem myself sometimes.. especially when my Haste pot just went on CD

. Just don't waste any energy, maintain 100% snd and rupture uptime and your set. You'd need a good bit of extra energy to justify putting an evis in there. I tend to pop in an extra SS even while I have 5 combo points already when waiting for rupture to tick off. If I'm at ~60-70 energy, have 1-2 seconds left on rupture and 5 combo points.. you essentially get a free extra SS.

I will definitely try to drop the eviscerate points in the future to test.
But with the same 1s/5r cut suggestion, I often use the remaining SnD time. It will be up anyway 100% of the time, the rupture might have some downtime,
BUT often 5 points Eviscerate are sneaked as well before the rupture time is over. And I really try to keep both SnD and rupture up as much as I can.

It does take a lot of concentration to keep both SnD and rupture up with this broken rotation, but I feel it gives good result so far. On static fights at least like this evening I had on Tidewalker.

Zurgat · 09/21/07, 4:24 AM

When i get my second piece of Tier 5 enchanted, i might consider taking back improved eviscerate.
At later times there are a number of situations where rupture can't be used all that much, because boss adds, aggro dumping, or plain immunity. But i'll run some testing either way.
VR and hydross are the 2 obvious targets, but they're pretty much farmstatus for us now.

With 2x T5, the dps difference between rupture and eviscerate becomes pretty small, and with the armor reduction trinket, and other armor reducing debuffs on the boss the difference is pretty marginal.
It's not so much the damage difference that i care about however, our raid is pretty much spot on the debuff cap of 40, so 1 less rupture will allow an extra warlock dot, or other debuff to be applied instead.

Urraca · 09/21/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

When i get my second piece of Tier 5 enchanted, i might consider taking back improved eviscerate.
At later times there are a number of situations where rupture can't be used all that much, because boss adds, aggro dumping, or plain immunity. But i'll run some testing either way.
VR and hydross are the 2 obvious targets, but they're pretty much farmstatus for us now.

With 2x T5, the dps difference between rupture and eviscerate becomes pretty small, and with the armor reduction trinket, and other armor reducing debuffs on the boss the difference is pretty marginal.
It's not so much the damage difference that i care about however, our raid is pretty much spot on the debuff cap of 40, so 1 less rupture will allow an extra warlock dot, or other debuff to be applied instead.

Even with 2x piece t5, 3/3 imp evis and -armor stacking, rupture still outpaces eviscerate by a solid amount.

Also, with 2pc t4 the minimum cycle is 3s/5e and once you move beyond t4 it's 5s/5e which is beyond annoying.

Stabmaster · 09/21/07, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Urraca

Even with 2x piece t5, 3/3 imp evis and -armor stacking, rupture still outpaces eviscerate by a solid amount.

Also, with 2pc t4 the minimum cycle is 3s/5e and once you move beyond t4 it's 5s/5e which is beyond annoying.

In my experience so far (up to Kael) Rupture is better for every fight except on Vashj and Solarian. Vashj herself and Solarian both have very low armor (close to 0 it seems) and take huge damage from Eviscerate.

I have 4/5 T5 and a Combat Sword build with 3/3 Imp. Evis.

Evis only really becomes viable as the target's armor approaches 0, for me at least. Does anyone know of a resource with Boss Armor values?

Pips · 09/21/07, 3:26 PM

I'm prolly doing something wrong, but I just got the 2.2.0.13 (Open Office), and I can't seem to get the Windfury to work on my mainhand dagger: the damage between selecting 'none' and 'Windfury' from the mainhand dropdown doesn't show me any difference in damage. Some help would be appreciated

massacre · 09/21/07, 5:42 PM

are you looking at the unbuffed or buffed dps, it works fine for me

Pips · 09/21/07, 9:27 PM

I was looking at unbuffed! I knew it had to be something silly I was doing wrong...

Deadly poison showed on the unbuffed damage though, so I was looking there for WF as well. As far as I can remember, WF did show in unbuffed damage in a previous version of the spreadsheet.

Anyway, I know where to look now, thanks

Xaoc · 09/22/07, 5:03 PM

Rogues cant cast WF on their weapons, so it wont show up under unbuffed. But they can cast poisons, which is why it showed the increase in the unbuffed table.

songster · 09/22/07, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Xaoc

Rogues cant cast WF on their weapons, so it wont show up under unbuffed. But they can cast poisons, which is why it showed the increase in the unbuffed table.

Hmm - they can also use flasks/potions etc. Are those included in the "unbuffed" figure too?

<confused>

Xaoc · 09/23/07, 1:08 AM

Those would be included under the buffed section, since you are buffing your base stats. Poisons do not modify any stats, which is why they show under unbuffed DPS.

Zurgat · 09/23/07, 6:14 AM

Could you add the following buff in the near future : "Traces of Silithyst"
Its a buff obtained from the pvp objectives in silithus.
It adds +5% damage to ranged, spells and melee.

On a side note, rupture is supposed to scale with attack power, correct?
But, when i look at my ingame tooltips, whether i'm naked or fully equipped 5p rupture shows1000 damage over 16 seconds.
Eviscerate however shows 1238-1366 with my current gear.
When i tested it (with the silithyst buff active) recap showed 8x183-184 = 1467 damage.
Without the buff it did 175 dmg per tick = 1400.
Ingame tooltip bug i guess?

Xaoc · 09/23/07, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

Could you add the following buff in the near future : "Traces of Silithyst"
Its a buff obtained from the pvp objectives in silithus.
It adds +5% damage to ranged, spells and melee.

On a side note, rupture is supposed to scale with attack power, correct?
But, when i look at my ingame tooltips, whether i'm naked or fully equipped 5p rupture shows1000 damage over 16 seconds.
Eviscerate however shows 1238-1366 with my current gear.
When i tested it (with the silithyst buff active) recap showed 8x183-184 = 1467 damage.
Without the buff it did 175 dmg per tick = 1400.
Ingame tooltip bug i guess?

The ingame tooltip does not recalculate the dmgs based on atk power, it only shows what the base level is. You would have to get some addon (DrDamage or something similar) that will correctly display the tooltips including all buffs.

AniwenofLothar · 09/23/07, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by liquidroyl

\Here's a WWS parse of our most recent Lurker Kill:
Wow Web Stats
compared to yours:
Wow Web Stats
1) You can avoid the whirls just by not being at the absolute inner edge of the platform
2) You can dps Lurker during spouts by jumping to the inside water rather than the outside
10% uptime difference is a LOT of damage.

What kills me is I actually did more SS damage than you, by about 20k, and more rupture damage, but my white damage is about 80k LESS... yikes... Checking your armory, I can only assume you're in Arena gear so I can't quite make a comparison.

In addition, you should be able to Adrenaline Rush at least twice during this battle, and Blade Flurry ~5 times. You only recorded 1 AR and 2 BFs. Despite a lower dps uptime, you had 17 S+Ds, compared to my 14.

I did slack on the cooldowns. It was my first time really on the fight (i've been forced to my priest lately due to a couple taking a vacation) so I wasn't cool with them really. I'll do better on that next time.

Here's a question: How do you play AD:Rush?
I generally get a SnD up before hand, hit it, BF, Trinket, 5p Rupture ASAP, generally 5p Evisc then hopefully a 2nd 5p rupture w/ my 270ap Trinket still up, then back to 1/5 cycles.

Premortem · 09/24/07, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by liquidroyl

AniwenofLothar: It looks like you may be a little too weary of the Whirls; my DPS uptime is generally significantly higher. This may be the next place to look for in terms of areas to improve.

Here's a WWS parse of our most recent Lurker Kill:
Wow Web Stats

compared to yours:
Wow Web Stats

check out the difference in dps times.

Here are some possible areas that could explain this difference:

1) You can avoid the whirls just by not being at the absolute inner edge of the platform - you do'nt have to be at the extreme outside. I avoid them fairly easily by moving out 2 seconds before the timer says it's coming, and you can move back in before the animation is fully complete - I believe the 'strike' itself only occurs at the beginning of his anim.

2) You can dps Lurker during spouts by jumping to the inside water rather than the outside

10% uptime difference is a LOT of damage. In addition, you should be able to Adrenaline Rush at least twice during this battle, and Blade Flurry ~5 times. You only recorded 1 AR and 2 BFs. Despite a lower dps uptime, you had 17 S+Ds, compared to my 14.

These are just the random things I spotted that may be able to help - hope I don't sound too much like an EJ.

Please pardon me shooting in these off-topic comments:

Regarding 1): From what I've seen, the "swirl-strike" does indeed happen just as he starts the animation.

Regarding 2) - Being in the inner pool works, but you can also run around lurker while he's spouting, constantly damaging him. Saves you/healers from worrying about that bit of damage you take while staying in the water as well - even though it's quite minor. When he stops the spout animation, move a few steps back and then go back in and you'll avoid the initial swirl after spout too.

Zurgat · 09/24/07, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by dinesh

I don't understand why you would add +H73 to that formula. You're basically double-counting your +hit socket bonus, because uhit already includes that cell in it's summation. I can confirm that my armory hit rating does not match what is returned by that formula, but it does match "uhit-H75".

Problem found, uhit-H75 is indeed correct.
The reason it displays 3 hit more than the ingame character sheet is because the sheet uses the 2.2 weapons and armor.
In patch 2.2 a few items are getting their +hit increased, which results in +3 hit versus the current values.

Ellos · 09/24/07, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

Problem found, uhit-H75 is indeed correct.
The reason it displays 3 hit more than the ingame character sheet is because the sheet uses the 2.2 weapons and armor.
In patch 2.2 a few items are getting their +hit increased, which results in +3 hit versus the current values.

I think I'll don't change the Hit value. At the moment the hitvalue is: Hit from Items + Hit from Talents + Hit from Weaponskills, so it's your realy Hitchance.

fraserstanton · 09/24/07, 8:23 PM

I noticed that the Talon of Ashara has the 2.1 stats rather than the 2.2 stats, but you are using the new 2.2 haste ratings everywhere. Some other weapons got changed too ... but I don't have those so don't care.

Please update the 2.2 weapons when you get a chance.

Zurgat · 09/25/07, 3:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ellos

I think I'll don't change the Hit value. At the moment the hitvalue is: Hit from Items + Hit from Talents + Hit from Weaponskills, so it's your realy Hitchance.

That's all ok, i just added a custom cell in "S6" that displays the hitrating which you see on your character screen. It's pretty useful.

Originally Posted by fraserstanton

I noticed that the Talon of Ashara has the 2.1 stats rather than the 2.2 stats, but you are using the new 2.2 haste ratings everywhere. Some other weapons got changed too ... but I don't have those so don't care.

Please update the 2.2 weapons when you get a chance.

It displays 20 hit, and 15 agi on the sheet i'm using, which are the 2.2 stats.

Antumbra · 09/25/07, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by AniwenofLothar

A question for the "pro" rogues out there...

I notice you already got some really great responses on your rotation and such so I don't really have much to add there. From looking at your armory, though, it feels like you're oversocketing stam and agility when you're not really lacking them at all - imho, you'd be better served by socketing the hell out of +8 hit or +4hit +4agi gems anywhere you can - girdle of treachery is the biggest offender; you REALLY don't need that stam, and 3 agi isn't worth wasting that many itemization points.

No guarantees, YMMV and such, but I think if you boosted your hit you'd see an across-the-board improvement in DPS, from a combination of increased white damage, increased proc rates, and better energy management due to CP proccing slightly more. In my case, going from around 200-225 hit all the way up to the hit cap (308, in my case) made a tremendous difference in my effectiveness.

The rest is most likely due to getting the wrong buffs for your class, like a couple other people have said. If your raid composition prevents you from getting the appropriate buffs to do good DPS, there's very little you can do about it... my guess would be that the other rogues topping your DPS are simply geared and specced in a way that makes them less dependent on buffs.

On the topic of AR, the AR technique you describe is basically identical to mine, except I don't equip Use trinkets, and I find it pretty effective. It does help to chug a haste pot before or after popping AR, though, to maximize the number of procs you get during the duration - on Gruul in particular I typically chug 3-5 pots in an attempt, timed to coincide with BF and AR. It's definitely effective if eating hateful strikes is your goal, at least.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely awful at using cooldowns effectively (which is why I don't use Use trinkets), so this may be entirely bad advice. Just figured I'd throw my two cents in since I haven't seen any in depth responses on this subject yet.

Since you mention rupture, are you sure your feral druids are keeping Mangle up at all times? Worth checking into, at least; I've had the misfortune of running with bad druids who forget to mangle consistently.

sp00n · 09/25/07, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Antumbra

On the other hand, I'm absolutely awful at using cooldowns effectively (which is why I don't use Use trinkets), so this may be entirely bad advice.

On this subject, I'm using a macro now to synchronize BF and Abacus:

#showtooltip Blade Flurry
/cast Blade Flurry
/use 13

13 is the upper trinket slot. Works best for 2 minute cooldowns, as blade flurry is.

I could add in another /use Drums of Battle, but I don't always want to use the drums when I activate the BF (since they have charges).

Trazhenko · 09/25/07, 11:08 AM

Does that work, sp00n? I had to put the /use 13 *before* blade flurry because BF triggers the global while the trinket does not.

I swap in a more aggressive macro for single target fights when I know I'll be using BF on cooldown instead of holding it for multi-target action:

#show Blade Flurry
/use 13
/use Haste Potion
/cast Blade Flurry

Of course, I don't typically have an on-use trinket equipped anymore (typically roll with WSC/DST), but it still works for the haste pot.

Ellos · 09/25/07, 11:43 AM

You also could use SnD instead of Blade Flurry.
I've used this when I played my rogue in raids and it work good in most cases.

sp00n · 09/25/07, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

Does that work, sp00n? I had to put the /use 13 *before* blade flurry because BF triggers the global while the trinket does not.

I swap in a more aggressive macro for single target fights when I know I'll be using BF on cooldown instead of holding it for multi-target action:

#show Blade Flurry
/use 13
/use Haste Potion
/cast Blade Flurry

Of course, I don't typically have an on-use trinket equipped anymore (typically roll with WSC/DST), but it still works for the haste pot.

It works, of course you have to press the button twice. But that's ok anyway, since Abacus has a lower duration than BF.
Though the other way around seems to be better, only one key press.

aleyro · 09/26/07, 12:40 PM

quick question regarding badge of justice rewards. I've been farming heroics for a few nights, and i just realized that i have enough tokens for either [Bloodlust Brooch] or [Searing Sunblade]. i plugged them both in to the spreadsheet, and was suprised to see that searing sunblade improved my dps about 6x more than BLB (~30 dps boost for dagger, 5dps boost for trinket). the trinket would likely be replacing my hourglass, the dagger would be replacing ER.

is this accurate? is this a result of the 1.3 speed of the sunblade coupled with combat potency?

i was thinking that the blb could be easily replaced (DST + WSC are right around the corner), but the dagger might last a bit longer... i dunno.

so, which should i go for? trinket or dagger?

AniwenofLothar · 09/26/07, 12:56 PM

Murder overview---

Just thought I'd post this up for anyone wondering if Murder is worth it. Baisc overview--

If you're in Karazhan, it's not
If you're past Karazhan, it is
If you're in Hyjal summit, it's not
If you're in Black Temple and Hyjal Summit, it is.

(this is from a rogue who's never seen either hyjal or BT :P)

Copied from thottbot...
Attumen the Huntsman, Midnight - Undead
Moroes - Undead
Maiden of Virtue - ??
Romulo & Julianne - Undead
Big Bad Wolf - Humanoid
The Crone - Humanoid
Nightbane - Undead
The Curator - Mechanical
Illhoof - Demon
Shade of Aran - undead
Prince Malchezaar - Demon
Netherspite - Demon

2/3 opera events have humanoid Mobs
All other Karazhan bosses are unaffected by Murder

Maulgar - humanoid
Gruul - humanoid

All Gruul's Lair mobs are affected by Murder

Hellfire Channeler - Humanoid
Magtheridon - demon

The adds in Magtheridon's lair are affected by Murder
(the orcs, not the infernals)

Lurker Below - Beast
Morogrim Tidewalker - Giant
Fathom-Lord Karathress - Humanoid
Leotheras the Blind - Humanoid / Demon
Hydross the Unstable - Elemental
Lady Vashj - Humanoid
5 of 6 bosses in SSC are affected by murder (including lurker's adds)

void reaver - mechanical
al'ar - elemental
Solarian - humanoid
Kael'thas - humanoid
only solarian and kael'thas are affected by Murder

No bosses in Hyjal are effected by murder

Gurtogg Bloodboil - Humanoid
Reliquary of Souls - ??
Teron Gorefiend - Undead
High Warlord Naj'entus - Humanoid
Supremus - Demon
Shade of Akama - Humanoid
Mother Shahraz - Demon
Illidari Council - Humanoid
Illidan Stormrage - Humanoid / Demon
All bosses in BT are effected by murder except Supremus, Teron Gorefiend and Mother Shahraz (and Illidan during demon phase, but rogues can't attack him then anyway)