No. If you read Hortus' quote a bit more closely, you will see he is merely stating that in addition to affecting yellow damage (as it currently only does), it should also affect white melee crits.
Combat Sword or Combat Dagger, which of those is better for Raid DPS? (without Illidan Blades :P with them Combat sword is best i think)
Swords is generally accepted as being superior for raid dps.
Originally Posted by uhohzombies
No. If you read Hortus' quote a bit more closely, you will see he is merely stating that in addition to affecting yellow damage (as it currently only does), it should also affect white melee crits.
Ok, i'll be quiet now...
I'm thinking a few elemental shamans won't be very happy with this, but it does make sense.
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And now after 2.2 Sword Changes? Before this changes it was better, but now after this changes i'm not sure.
apparently it is. I was dagger b4 patch, around 80 DPS behind other rogue in my raidgroup (he's swords). changed over to swords with new patch and now we come par with DPS on raids.
even spreadsheet says the same. I know it is bad, since daggers have their cons in some enounters with positioning and wasted energy ticks, not mentining pvp, but that's the way it is.
If you gear yourself for mutilate and properly keep up find weakness it has potential to do just as much single target boss dps. Swords is much easier to dps with simply because you don't need to worry about keeping self buffs up.
I would not suggest combat daggers simply because it is a boring spec and has position requirements.
If you gear yourself for mutilate and properly keep up find weakness it has potential to do just as much single target boss dps. Swords is much easier to dps with simply because you don't need to worry about keeping self buffs up.
I would not suggest combat daggers simply because it is a boring spec and has position requirements.
Mutilate has position requirements.
Slice and Dice, Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush = self buffs.
I raid till WoW Classic as combat dagger, and never a sword rogue gets over me in DMG, andi can say i lead the dmg list in my Guild. So thats why i'm wondering about combat dagger or sword. Isn't there any way to show which is best? Instead of self testing :P?
I raid till WoW Classic as combat dagger, and never a sword rogue gets over me in DMG, andi can say i lead the dmg list in my Guild. So thats why i'm wondering about combat dagger or sword. Isn't there any way to show which is best? Instead of self testing :P?
Yes. There's a spreadsheet, and coincidentally, it's located in the very thread you're posting in.
You can always give the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet a shot if you don't find this one satisfactorily answers your questions.
I raid till WoW Classic as combat dagger, and never a sword rogue gets over me in DMG, andi can say i lead the dmg list in my Guild. So thats why i'm wondering about combat dagger or sword. Isn't there any way to show which is best? Instead of self testing :P?
and oddly enough, even using the spreadsheet, ther is NO way to tell how much damage you will actually do until you test it. Until a spreadsheet is done by a Blizzard dev, you won't see 100% accurate models of gameplay and game formulas. Until then, this spreadsheet, as well as the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet do a pretty good job of modeling what is plausible, in-theory, raid dps.
And yes, swords > Daggers still. Positioning and scaling with raid/group buffs throws it over the top.
The changes to sword spec and Windfury have brought them closer together, but I still think swords have a slight edge. I suggest plugging in your gear into either of the spreadsheets, plug in your expected buffs. Add the talents for combat swords and give yourself equivalent swords. Add the talents for combat daggers and give yourself your daggers. Compare it yourself for your gear level. (Or just give yourself the Merciless Gladiator weapons for an equivalent side-by-side comparison). That should answer your question.
As to positional requirements, I keep hearing this, but really, it's not the big issue people keep making it out to be. If sword rogues aren't getting to the back of the mobs anyway, they are causing spike damage to the main tank as every parry causes a 40% attack speed increase on the next swing, possibly causing it to hit when they aren't uncrushable. Positional requirements only hurt a dagger rogue if you ever hit full energy and cannot use it. This doesn't happen often if you know what you are doing.
As to complexity of combat styles. Combat swords and combat daggers are very similar in play style (for raid PvE) unless the sword rogue is getting lazy and not positioning themselves behind the target. Both tend to be simpler (i.e. boring, some might say) but outperform the more complicated Mutilate or Hemo builds in terms of dps.
As the others have stated, Swords is still better than daggers for raid dps. My current spec and build, if I change from S2 daggers to S2 swords and change only spec (combat daggers to combat swords) is roughly 50 dps increase according to spreadsheet.
I was top dps in guild for months on end now. Second rogue finally got both S2 swords and is even or beating me by a slight amount on our runs now. Needless to say the others in the guild are razzing me endlessly =)
That being said, I am 2-3 weeks from a set of S2 Swords now, will post again once I blow him away again.
As for testing and whatnot, there are a few reasons swords kill daggers.
Reason 1= cycle duration. Swords only takes about 20 to 25 seconds to do a cycle. daggers takes about a minute.. nearly 3 times as long.
Reason 2 = movement. You don't really get a minute without moving positionally on most fights. so maintaining perfect cycles becomes very problematic in action (i.e. hydross 50 second rounds).
Reason 3 = Sword spec. Because of the way sword spec works currently, offhand procs make main hand hits, so a crit offhand for dagger from spec only does double dmg (normal times 2), while the offhand sword spec procs do a main hand hit, generally about 3.5 times dmg(normal plus a main hand hit, generally 2.5 the dmg of offhand) assuming it does not crit of course.
Reason 4 = Windfury. Same thing with windfury, AP normalization gives an extra main hand hit 1.7 normalized AP bonus, where swords give 2.7 normalized (aka you get more dmg out of your super buffed AP). With the windfury buff being like poisons, a straight % proc rate, Swords end up getting more bonus dmg from thier 2.7 normalized AP bonus. Assuming that windfury does in fact now only proc on normal attacks (not on BS/SS) it is even less favorable for daggers.
Reason 5 = Backstab is lvl 60 still. You may have noticed this or not, there was a mid 60's training of backstab...it was exactly the same dmg as the lvl 60 book from AQ20. Nice waste of like 6 gold at the time =) a small contributer, but a contributer to the demise of combat daggers =)
Reason 6 = If you are human, with the current changes to weapon skill, swords are the win for human rogues. If your a human it is even better than normal for you. (I am NE and so is our other raiding rogue, so equivalent gear dagger does lose to swords still with new patch 2.2)
Reason 4 = Windfury. Same thing with windfury, AP normalization gives an extra main hand hit 1.7 normalized AP bonus, where swords give 2.7 normalized (aka you get more dmg out of your super buffed AP). With the windfury buff being like poisons, a straight % proc rate, Swords end up getting more bonus dmg from thier 2.7 normalized AP bonus. Assuming that windfury does in fact now only proc on normal attacks (not on BS/SS) it is even less favorable for daggers.
Reason 5 = Backstab is lvl 60 still. You may have noticed this or not, there was a mid 60's training of backstab...it was exactly the same dmg as the lvl 60 book from AQ20. Nice waste of like 6 gold at the time =) a small contributer, but a contributer to the demise of combat daggers =)
Reason 6 = If you are human, with the current changes to weapon skill, swords are the win for human rogues. If your a human it is even better than normal for you. (I am NE and so is our other raiding rogue, so equivalent gear dagger does lose to swords still with new patch 2.2)
4) Windfury is not normalized. Daggers and swords get equivalent benefit from it (excluding the chance of getting a sword spec proc from a Windfury hit). Also, the normalized speed for swords for instant attacks is 2.4, not 2.7.
5) Wrong. Backstab 9 (AQ book) is 150% damage plus 225. Backstab 10 (level 68) is 150% damage plus 255.
6) Weapon Expertise invalidates this benefit, since it does not stack and every raiding rogue with half a brain takes it.
Last edited by Vulajin : 10/01/07 at 8:04 PM.
Reason: Clarified the Windfury info
6) Weapon Expertise invalidates this benefit, since it does not stack and every raiding rogue with half a brain takes it.
Weapon Expertise does stack with the Human racial bonus and any other weapon skill rating you manage to pick up. Current theory holds that there's a big spike for first 5 points of skill, but adding on after that still provides a steady boost.
I agree with Vulajin on points 4, 5, and 6. To add to that:
Originally Posted by Dreshla
Reason 1= cycle duration. Swords only takes about 20 to 25 seconds to do a cycle. daggers takes about a minute.. nearly 3 times as long.
a) Sword cycles are, in fact, shorter in most cases. However, there's nothing fundamentally advantageous about a shorter cycle in a sustained situation; while it's true that it does allow you to get your cycle up and running during a shorter fight, it's also true that short fights have all manner of other considerations that change the comparison in far more fundamental ways.
b) Daggers gain access to a very nice ~20 sec cycle with 2/5 T4.
Reason 2 = movement. You don't really get a minute without moving positionally on most fights. so maintaining perfect cycles becomes very problematic in action (i.e. hydross 50 second rounds).
I would argue that movement fights favor daggers, actually; fundamentally, daggers do their damage by having a higher damage/energy efficiency on their main CPG (that's Combo Point Genrator, for those that haven't heard me use the term before), but lose out to swords due to the ability of swords to sustain higher Rupture uptime to compensate. What this means is that a dagger rogue still does fairly respectable damage even if he's doing nothing but using backstab and keeping SnD up, whereas a sword rogue *must* be able to sustain good cycles to generate maximal damage. Hence, in an interrupted situation, the sword rogue is actually going to suffer at least as much as the dagger rogue.
Reason 3 = Sword spec. Because of the way sword spec works currently, offhand procs make main hand hits, so a crit offhand for dagger from spec only does double dmg (normal times 2), while the offhand sword spec procs do a main hand hit, generally about 3.5 times dmg(normal plus a main hand hit, generally 2.5 the dmg of offhand) assuming it does not crit of course.
This is actually the fundamental reason why swords win. Offhand sword spec provides about twice the benefit of dagger or fist spec on the offhand, it is this more than anything that causes the difference between them. If OH sword spec procced OH hits, swords would have a slight advantage in SSC/TK but daggers would keep up in Black Temple, in my estimation; if you'd like to read my lengthier analysis of these considerations, I would refer you to Rogue Gear Spreadsheet post 490.
Edit: Regarding Astearn's post: Yes, there is still a steady benefit from the next 5 points in weapon skill; however, it is not as large an effect as the other factors in play.
Hey guys looking for some more info on todays dagger vs swords raid dps topics. I have been a Swords rogue for a long time, and I am always looking to maximize my DPS for raiding. Currently using a VIdicator's Brand / MGQB combo, but i do have a Melchazeen/Emerald Ripper Combo in the bank. I am leary about respeccing for 2 reasons, I do not like the situational fighting of daggers, and I think I might loose DPS even tho might be better weapons, any opinions?
Something else to through out there... could a mixed wep combo work with a respec? Melchazeen/MGQB combo has crossed my mind since I have both, could this be better then my Sword/sword, and my dag/dag I have now? What spec do you use for Dag/Sword ?
Also I would love any good info on my armory gear. Is there anything I am doing wrong here? DO I need to change any Gear? Do I need to regem more +hit then I have for more overall raid DPS? With my guild we are casual, and I only have access to kara/gruul's and below, so I strive to be the best in my class.
10/01/07, 4:16 AM
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