[top]WENN(ODER(trinket1

Dontmindme · 10/22/07, 1:17 AM

Sounds about right...
+6% on backstabs that are only at most about 30% of one's damage anyway...
Lose 3 talent points that presumably were doing something else...
Really not much of a change at all.
Even without the lost talents from the switch 6% of 30% of damage = only 1.8%

nightryde · 10/22/07, 4:34 PM

any plans on releasing DPS Spreadsheet 2.3.0.0 before the patch comes out?

it would be nice to make gear estimates before the patch so i make my upgrades more efficiently

Ariashley · 10/22/07, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

The 25 weapon skill rating translate to 6 weapon skill, which - depending if you already reached the magic number of 5 (e.g. through WEx) reduces your chance to miss by 0.6%. Additionally your dodge chance is reduced, presumably by also 0.6%.

However, I wouldn't take this into account, seeing the major revamp with expertise in the next patch. If the rating conversion stays the same, you'll be seeing also 6 expertise out of 25 expertise rating, giving you a 6*0.25 = 1.25% reduced chance to be dodged and parried.

6*0.25 = 1.5%

I read that 25 expertise rating converts at about 15.77 per 1% (very similar to hit - and not like the former weapon skill). In that case, you would gain approximately 1.6% hit from the back or 3.2% hit from the front after 2.3. This conversion rate is consistent with my observations of data in the PTR. After the patch, expertise will not affect your miss rate. Today it reduces your hit cap by roughly the amount of the amount of the weapon skill rating.

Dontmindme · 10/22/07, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ariashley

6*0.25 = 1.5%

I read that 25 expertise rating converts at about 15.77 per 1% (very similar to hit - and not like the former weapon skill). In that case, you would gain approximately 1.6% hit from the back or 3.2% hit from the front after 2.3. This conversion rate is consistent with my observations of data in the PTR. After the patch, expertise will not affect your miss rate. Today it reduces your hit cap by roughly the amount of the amount of the weapon skill rating.

Actually the formula is 2.5*82/52 = 3.9423% for 1 expertise. This is exactly the same as the conversion for weapon skill is/was. Each Expertise gives 0.25%, so you are correct that it's about 15.77% for 1%.

Hit rating is 10*82/52 which is exactly 4 times more than expertise and actually the same percent to 1%. In fact all the rating formulas are based the same X*82/52, so it's not surprising to see a similarity in the numbers.

benybenson · 10/23/07, 4:20 AM

There is a small bug in tsunami uptime calc.

UNBUFFED DPS q49

[top]WENN(ODER(trinket1

"Tsunami Talisman";trinket2="Tsunami Talisman");15/(10/(Q29)+40);0)

fixed:

[top]WENN(ODER(trinket1

"Tsunami Talisman";trinket2="Tsunami Talisman");10/(10/(Q29)+40);0)

Trinkets V26
=(15/(10/('Unbuffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C29

fixed:

=(10/(10/('Unbuffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C29

Trinkets W26
=(15/(10/('Buffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C60

fixed:

=(10/(10/('Buffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C60

Uptime per procc is 10s not 15s

Waldar · 10/24/07, 6:11 AM

*** Quoting old post ***

Originally Posted by Ellos

I'll think I'll ask Mih later for the version he is working on and then start with the bugfixes and maybe changes for next Patch (will see when I'll release it then).

This version will maybe the last version I'll work on, becuase I'm not playing my rouge anymore, I'm not rading and I've got not enough time to work out all those things.

Ellos & Mih, any word on an updated 2.3 sheet ?
Without any update, the interest in this thread is falling down.

Most of us knows this is a hard job - that's why we're so glad of the time and effort you've been spending on it - but if you don't want / can't continue this work maybe it's time to announce it.

Edit : I do fill my 2.3 beta sheet with the new stuff, my purpose was more on keeping it updated is a real task, and lack of time / motivation may translate into a lost of interest.
See, for patch 2.2 there was 13 or so beta sheets, and they were valuables for all floks who just don't how to use Excel and such. Again, i don't blame anyone (all contributors earned my respect), i just think the situation should be clear.

Shimo · 10/24/07, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by Waldar

*** Quoting old post ***

Ellos & Mih, any word on an updated 2.3 sheet ?
Without any update, the interest in this thread is falling down.

Most of us knows this is a hard job - that's why we're so glad of the time and effort you've been spending on it - but if you don't want / can't continue this work maybe it's time to announce it.

c'mon you can work with the currently beta as well...
make your own calculations about the sheet and realize...

another question

i need a rogue with "Madness of the Betrayer" (optional with 2 pieces t6)

anyone present? i'm not agreed with the currently uptime calc. of ~40%, but i need some cut's of a combat log from a rogue with thise trinket

thanks

nightryde · 10/24/07, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Waldar

*** Quoting old post ***
Edit : I do fill my 2.3 beta sheet with the new stuff, my purpose was more on keeping it updated is a real task, and lack of time / motivation may translate into a lost of interest.
See, for patch 2.2 there was 13 or so beta sheets, and they were valuables for all floks who just don't how to use Excel and such. Again, i don't blame anyone (all contributors earned my respect), i just think the situation should be clear.

can we download this 2.3 beta sheet somewhere?

Shimo · 10/24/07, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by nightryde

can we download this 2.3 beta sheet somewhere?

http://rogue.raidcal.com/RogueDPS_2_3_0_2_beta.xls

Valen · 10/24/07, 11:59 AM

based on my 1 hour test on PTR, DST has either a CD or lower proc rate. In 1 hour of swinging I never got it to refresh itself. ( I haven't played much lately so if this had already been changed in an earlier patch, sorry)

Wodahs · 10/24/07, 12:00 PM

DST has had a cooldown of 20 seconds in it from an earlier patch.

Eldari · 10/24/07, 12:39 PM

With S3 fast approaching I have the points for a new MH and OH. With my focus being Raid DPS should I get the MH Fist and OH sword? Following the thread on fist/sword here it seems that equal gear fist sword is outperforming sword sword, and my own testing with BBWP before I got s2 sword MH seems to confirm. What do you think?

ekval · 10/24/07, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Eldari

With S3 fast approaching I have the points for a new MH and OH. With my focus being Raid DPS should I get the MH Fist and OH sword? Following the thread on fist/sword here it seems that equal gear fist sword is outperforming sword sword, and my own testing with BBWP before I got s2 sword MH seems to confirm. What do you think?

I would suggest going for sword/sword, difference is minimal if you count poison talents in.

jaxtherogue · 10/24/07, 1:40 PM

I am currently a mutilate spec who was once a full on subtley rogue. I miss the fun of that spec very much and the recent proposed changes to the sub tree are enticing me me back to a 20/0/41 Shadowstep build. In playing with the beta spreadsheet it seems that with a small gear change my DPS would not be seriously lessened, yet I notice that Shadowstep seems to have no positive or negative effect on DPS. Understanding that Shadowstep might not be an ideal raiding ability, surely it would have some effect on my dps?

Am I missing something or is shadowstep just not modeled in the beta spreadsheet?

Stabmaster · 10/24/07, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by jaxtherogue

I am currently a mutilate spec who was once a full on subtley rogue. I miss the fun of that spec very much and the recent proposed changes to the sub tree are enticing me me back to a 20/0/41 Shadowstep build. In playing with the beta spreadsheet it seems that with a small gear change my DPS would not be seriously lessened, yet I notice that Shadowstep seems to have no positive or negative effect on DPS. Understanding that Shadowstep might not be an ideal raiding ability, surely it would have some effect on my dps?

Am I missing something or is shadowstep just not modeled in the beta spreadsheet?

It's not modeled because it would have a very small, nearly irrelevent effect on DPS. It certainly could be added, but 99% of people using this spreadsheet would never ever use Shadowstep.

Any Shadowstep build will have very sub-par raid DPS. It's just a waste of time to model it.

• Aldriana · 10/24/07, 3:11 PM

Also, since Shadowstep has a minimum range that's longer than melee, it's not worth using on sustained fights - the amount of damage you lose by backing out to trigger it is greater than the bonus damage you get from using it. Hence, it doesn't increase DPS at all for the sort of fight the spreadsheet is designed to model (although it will help on movement-type fights).

jaxtherogue · 10/24/07, 3:36 PM

Running the numbers now (and in a small amount of testing on the PTR), it is not subpar to my mutilate damage. There may be lots of reasons for that, none having to do with spec, but I don't think it can be dismissed entirely out of hand. I would like to do more testing myself.

For the fights I am a part of now (Prince, Netherspite, Gruul, Nightbane), running in and out on a boss is par for the course. Shadowstep would have a use in those cases. I would agree, that running out for the purpose of getting in a Shadowstep would surely cost you more damage then you could gain.

songster · 10/24/07, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by jaxtherogue

Running the numbers now (and in a small amount of testing on the PTR), it is not subpar to my mutilate damage. There may be lots of reasons for that, none having to do with spec, but I don't think it can be dismissed entirely out of hand. I would like to do more testing myself.

For the fights I am a part of now (Prince, Netherspite, Gruul, Nightbane), running in and out on a boss is par for the course. Shadowstep would have a use in those cases. I would agree, that running out for the purpose of getting in a Shadowstep would surely cost you more damage then you could gain.

Read the post above yours. Shadowstep is not usable in PvE due to the minimum range. Backing out to use it will always lose you more than it gains you. The only time it has a potential use is when moving rapidly between many targets which are quite widely spread. That does not apply to solo, 5-man, 10-man or raiding.

jaxtherogue · 10/24/07, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by songster

Read the post above yours. Shadowstep is not usable in PvE due to the minimum range. Backing out to use it will always lose you more than it gains you. The only time it has a potential use is when moving rapidly between many targets which are quite widely spread. That does not apply to solo, 5-man, 10-man or raiding.

I did read the post. With Prince, Gruul, Nightbane and Netherspite, you run away from the boss at certain intervals, not to use Shadowstep, but because the encounter is designed such that melee DPS must do so (though CoS can help you stick around for Prince novas from time to time). I am not suggesting that one would run about for the sole purpose of using Shadowstep. With the right timing of CP usage one could ShS back and treat your target to a significantly buffed rupture (to name one example). It's just something I am exploring.

[edited to add]
I have plugged in three different specs, 41/20/0, 20/41/0,20/0/41, adjusted my current available weapons to suit each of the specs (between Malchazeen, Blade of the Unrequited, Latro's and Spiteblade) and found less than a 4% difference in raid-buffed dps between any of the specs. (just for a complete look, the rest of the gear I have is, Deathblow goggles, Worgen Claw Necklace, Primalstrike Vest/Braces/Belt, Grips of Deftness, Bladed Shoulderpads, Edgewalker Longboots, Drape of the Dark Reaver, Garona's Signet Ring, Ring of a Thousand Marks, Bloodlust Brooch, Hourgalss of the Unraveller)

Volc · 10/26/07, 1:51 AM

I have just got this spreadsheet and i'm trying to enter all my data in but in the weapon drop downs i only seem to have access to swords. Can anyone inform me on how u can use daggers?

• Vulajin · 10/26/07, 3:05 AM

Originally Posted by Volc

I have just got this spreadsheet and i'm trying to enter all my data in but in the weapon drop downs i only seem to have access to swords. Can anyone inform me on how u can use daggers?

You have failed to read the first post of the thread.

Neshalin · 10/26/07, 4:21 AM

Originally Posted by jaxtherogue

For the fights I am a part of now (Prince, Netherspite, Gruul, Nightbane), running in and out on a boss is par for the course. Shadowstep would have a use in those cases. I would agree, that running out for the purpose of getting in a Shadowstep would surely cost you more damage then you could gain.

Serpentshrine Cavern:
- Hydross when switching phase
- The Lurker Below to reach the adds, or maybe to get out of water fast if line of sight isn't blocked
- Leotheras the Blind after whirlwind
- Fathom Lord Karathress when switching between adds, or possibly to reach a far-away totem
- Morogrim Tidewalker after watery grave (maybe once or twice in the fight)
- Lady Vashj to break Entangle (does this work?), reach Tainted Elementals, get to Vashj after dodging green stuff

Tempest Keep:
- Al'ar after every meteor
- High Astromancer Solarian when she steps out of a portal
- Kael'thas Sunstrider when switching between adds, to reach eggs, possibly to get in a backstab on Thaladred the Darkener

Mount Hyjal:
- Rage Winterchill after dodging Death and Decay
- Azgalor when switching between adds
- Archimonde after an unlucky fear, dodging fire or running in after Air Burst

Black Temple:
- Supremus in kite phase and if your tanks turn him a lot
- Shade of Akama switching between channelers and sorcerers
- Gurtogg Bloodboil if you're backing away before each Fel Rage
- Reliquary of Souls to get positioned properly on phase 1
- Mother Shahraz after Fatal Attraction, and maybe when airborne from Sinister Beam (does this work?)
- Illidari Council after dodging AoE
- Illidan Stormrage to reach Flames of Azzinoth and Shadow Demons

Especially in tier 5 content you can use Shadow Step a lot, with some fights on every cooldown. What remains to be seen is if the sustained dps is good enough.

vittas · 10/26/07, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

Sounds about right...
+6% on backstabs that are only at most about 30% of one's damage anyway...
Lose 3 talent points that presumably were doing something else...
Really not much of a change at all.
Even without the lost talents from the switch 6% of 30% of damage = only 1.8%

U lose only improved kick and / or improved sprint which are fillers anyways and offer 0% DPS increase for PvE, so the +6% BS dmg is a good buff.

mmaker · 10/26/07, 10:28 AM

Nice beta sheet! Some things that isnt there yet is the new aggresion for backstab and Waistguard of the Great Beast. Just a reminder

edit. Tried to add the belt to the belt sheet but it didnt show up, or the numbers in the belt sheet(unbuffed/buffed gain) wasnt there. So i just replaced the stats with liars cord, that will work to?

feanor831 · 10/26/07, 11:49 AM

Hey,

I was trying to look for a post and did overview known issues but couldn't find anything regarding DPS with meta gems in the sheet.

Is there a reason that the DPS doesn't change when switching meta gems? Was trying to compare the new Helm from ZA with other Helms available through engineering and tier4/5/6.