I've been playing with the thought of speccing 30/0/31 for pve/pvp, giving me hemo and seal fate. Plugging this into the spreadsheet, a cycle of 5s/5r sc comes out. Looking at the buffed cycles sheet, 5s/5r and 4s/5r is pretty much on par, but 5s/4r drops a bit from the dps from 5s/5r.
So i was wondering if the cycle to be used should be 4-5s/4-5r or 4-5s/5r. Basicly wether or not I should throw in another hemo if i reach 4 point for rupture.
My crit with badge items, and whatnot I'll get pretty soon, is about 32%. Still sticking with the 2 T4 bonus.
Edit: Clarification.
Problem with 30/0/31 in PvE is huge missrate and bumpy cycles. You can get lucky and get few crits in row and then be few cycles without any crits, its just too random to get any decent cycle up. Without Imp. SnD you end up mostly refreshing your SnD if you are unlucky with SF crits.
Edit: That spec is one of the funniest specs to play with tho, if it could just somehow keep cycles running decently. I will probably give it a shot again now when I've obtained Ashtongue trinket. Damage from 30/0/31 or 31/0/30 (which I like more) isn't that far from Combat Swords or trispec hemos.
The latest version I DLed doesnt have the merc-glad daggers in the list of weapons. Is this because im not running it through excel or are they just not in there?
Also, even though the spreadsheat tells us imp poisons is better than vile.... If one is uisng windfury on their MH and deadly on the OH, wouldnt vile poisons be better as deadly procs to 5 so easily? I would think the extra DP damage would be best since it stacks to 5 quickly.
The latest version I DLed doesnt have the merc-glad daggers in the list of weapons. Is this because im not running it through excel or are they just not in there?
Also, even though the spreadsheat tells us imp poisons is better than vile.... If one is uisng windfury on their MH and deadly on the OH, wouldnt vile poisons be better as deadly procs to 5 so easily? I would think the extra DP damage would be best since it stacks to 5 quickly.
Deadly Poison doesn't always stack that quickly, and will sometimes even drop off, due to boss resists and such, which is why imp poisons is better.
The latest version I DLed doesnt have the merc-glad daggers in the list of weapons. Is this because im not running it through excel or are they just not in there?
I think the oh dagger selection range is simply too short. The other ranges are correct, maybe this one was just missed.
Another little problem, aggression should work with backstab since version 2.3.0.2, well, actually it doesn't :/
Problem with 30/0/31 in PvE is huge missrate and bumpy cycles. You can get lucky and get few crits in row and then be few cycles without any crits, its just too random to get any decent cycle up. Without Imp. SnD you end up mostly refreshing your SnD if you are unlucky with SF crits.
Edit: That spec is one of the funniest specs to play with tho, if it could just somehow keep cycles running decently. I will probably give it a shot again now when I've obtained Ashtongue trinket. Damage from 30/0/31 or 31/0/30 (which I like more) isn't that far from Combat Swords or trispec hemos.
Well, there are a few posts both in US and german forums about that 3x/0/3x spec for PvE... they result in the overall summing-up, that a sealfate hemo spec with deadliness requires just about 9% hit. If you have this value (142 hitrating), then the stat-choice should be crit > agi > ap. If you are on the 9% hit from equip and have then a good base of AP and especially crit, and than have the ashtongue trinket, you should be far away from any other pve spec. You should than have enough combopoints to have the whole time SnD, imp. (!) EA and Rupture up and still have some points to throw an eviscerate or an envenom in between.
The idea behind an 3x/0/3x PvE hemo spec, while having 9% hit and than stacking crit like hell together with the ashtongue exalted trinket sounds really great... but is gemming for crit + improved expose armor + seal fate + deadliness + hemo really that strong that is has the potential to beat out dual wield spec, weapon spec, blade flurry and weapon expertise (comparing a trispec-hemo and the 3x/0/3x)?
This would turn the common meanings of the "PvE-tree" and the "PvP-tree" completely reverse... assa/sub with hemo would be the best PvE-Spec, and combat would be the tree you only spec for pvp... and that is the thing, that doesn't sounds both logic and intended from blizzard for me...
Well, there are a few posts both in US and german forums about that 3x/0/3x spec for PvE... they result in the overall summing-up, that a sealfate hemo spec with deadliness requires just about 9% hit. If you have this value (142 hitrating), then the stat-choice should be crit > agi > ap. If you are on the 9% hit from equip and have then a good base of AP and especially crit, and than have the ashtongue trinket, you should be far away from any other pve spec. You should than have enough combopoints to have the whole time SnD, imp. (!) EA and Rupture up and still have some points to throw an eviscerate or an envenom in between.
The idea behind an 3x/0/3x PvE hemo spec, while having 9% hit and than stacking crit like hell together with the ashtongue exalted trinket sounds really great... but is gemming for crit + improved expose armor + seal fate + deadliness + hemo really that strong that is has the potential to beat out dual wield spec, weapon spec, blade flurry and weapon expertise (comparing a trispec-hemo and the 3x/0/3x)?
This would turn the common meanings of the "PvE-tree" and the "PvP-tree" completely reverse... assa/sub with hemo would be the best PvE-Spec, and combat would be the tree you only spec for pvp... and that is the thing, that doesn't sounds both logic and intended from blizzard for me...
Perhaps I've missed something, but I'm not at all clear why Expose Armor is being discussed in the context of PvE.
Perhaps I've missed something, but I'm not at all clear why Expose Armor is being discussed in the context of PvE.
Maybe it now stacks with SA? Maybe only if it is specced? I don't have the possibility to test it by myself, because I don't have an character on the PTR... it was just the copy of some posts I read...
Expose Armor can be pretty cool in raids, even with a warrior tank, but you'll want to talk it over with him first. You can't have it always on, especially not at the start of a fight. Later on in a fight he might be okay with it, since he'll have better ways to gain aggro once he has his rage going. But even then, just consider this..
Is the difference between a warriors Sunder and your (Imp) Expose Armor enough to override his sunders once in a while and not Rupture, SnD, Envenom or maybe even Eviscerate?
Yes, Imp Expose Armor will give a bigger raid damage increase then the damage your basic non-talented Rupture deals, but that Imp Expose Armor is replacing something else, so you should take the damage increase from Sunder into account as well here, and subtract it from the damage increase by EA.
We looked at it in one of the other threads. It comes out to about a 5% damage loss for the individual rogue, but about a 2-3% boost to all melee DPS if you have 2/2 improved Expose. So if you don't need a warrior to build threat on the target, it's worth having improved Expose on it. However, the effect on warrior threat is so pronounced that there's no way you can use it if a warrior is tanking (or if a warrior needs to stay high on the aggro table to be able to take over as OT).
My friend has been trying an experiment that is interesting to me. He went back and got the felstriker from Rend in order to try this out, and the sheer fact that this works is interesting to me. He is mutilate build, and has the gear below.
He went for felstriker in his mutilate build and has since been doing a lot of DPS, noticeable enough to compete with rogues in combat spec. My question to those who are better at theory crafting than I is this: Is using felstriker in mutilate a good idea, or is it just too old of a weapon to matter?
I think the oh dagger selection range is simply too short. The other ranges are correct, maybe this one was just missed.
Another little problem, aggression should work with backstab since version 2.3.0.2, well, actually it doesn't :/
Hmm, I definitely dont see either dagger in my list. I wanted to compare combat daggers with both merc-glad daggers to combat swords with spiteblade/merc-glad quickblade. I want to respec swords but have to wait quite a few weeks to be able to afford both merc-glad swords.
I come here to ask you if the sword spec is basically superior to the fist spec in PVE vhl. Indeed, I already have the s2 arena oh fist, and next week, I'll have the point to buy a mh.
So I was wondering if I should buy the sword or the fist.
I have read some pieces of advice in this thread, and what I have understand is that when you increse your hit, the sword spec is better.
Right now, I have 214 hit, but I expect to reach 300+ one day or another :p
With my guild we down Gruul , and are gonna down Void Reaver quickly.
So the MH pve sword such as Talon of Azshara is not mine before a moment.
Do you advise me to take the fist mh and waiting for a mh sword in pve, or should I take the sword, and continue to do arena and take the oh when I could?
edit: Sorry about the brief response, but it's better if you use the spreadsheet and decide for yourself. Enter your gear and buffs, then try swapping weapons and decide what dps you are happy with.
Deadly Poison doesn't always stack that quickly, and will sometimes even drop off, due to boss resists and such, which is why imp poisons is better.
Strictly speaking, this is not true. In any fight where you stand and DPS, deadly poison will have enough time at a full stack that vile poison gives you more of a damage boost - assuming you are not itemized like an idiot (decent hit, fast offhand)
However, if you take into account having to run out or otherwise being forced to stop DPS, improved poison usually wins. Additionally, improved poison has diminishing returns, so it is theoretically possible that some mix of improved and vile poisons is better than just vile poisons depending on the fight, but
This is based on a spreadsheet I made that simulates 20000 swings and averages the results from 20 runs. It assumes DP only on the OH, 100% SnD uptime, but no other haste effects, and that the 83% resist rate for bosses applies to poison application - as a two roll system.
Essentially, improved poison favors low hit, slow attack speeds, and any situation where the stack is going to fall off due to not DPSing. Since the first two are things you should not be doing anyways, this means that the value of the skill depends on whether or not you have to stop DPS, and if so, how often. For most fights, imp poison is better than vile poison - however, it is not ALWAYS better.
Strictly speaking, this is not true. In any fight where you stand and DPS, deadly poison will have enough time at a full stack that vile poison gives you more of a damage boost - assuming you are not itemized like an idiot (decent hit, fast offhand)
From my experience, by using ClassTimer to observe, typical tank and spank fight, with 1.5 speed MG quickblade, 297 hit rating, dragonspine trophy, no poison talent, Snd up, sometimes my deadly poison would still drop. That's why I decided to take 3/5 imp poison.
So I wouldn't just jump to conclusion and say that's not true.
From my experience, by using ClassTimer to observe, typical tank and spank fight, with 1.5 speed MG quickblade, 297 hit rating, dragonspine trophy, no poison talent, Snd up, sometimes my deadly poison would still drop. That's why I decided to take 3/5 imp poison.
So I wouldn't just jump to conclusion and say that's not true.
You're right, statistically, you do have a chance that you wont get a poison hit in the 12 seconds. (At 1 hit per second, if they all connect, the chances are 98.6%) However I could consider these odds to be fairly low.
I believe I may have found a typo, but I also may just be a little confused. Cell Q3 in the unbuffed and buffed dps sheets reads =IF(bossfight,6.5%,5%). I was always under the impression that the base dodge chance behind a raid boss was 5.6%. I double checked with a sheet from a little while back and wasn't surprised to find =IF(bossfight,5.6%,5%) in the cell.
I may have missed something with the change of weapon skill or some other new discovery about melee dps mechanics. I searched around this thread briefly to see what I could find and came up with nothing.
The only reason I bring this up is 5.6% and 6.5% are so close I can see how a typo may have happened. If anyone can confirm or deny this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
From my experience, by using ClassTimer to observe, typical tank and spank fight, with 1.5 speed MG quickblade, 297 hit rating, dragonspine trophy, no poison talent, Snd up, sometimes my deadly poison would still drop. That's why I decided to take 3/5 imp poison.
So I wouldn't just jump to conclusion and say that's not true.
1) I did not jump to any conclusions. My statements are based on the simulations I ran. In fact, until I made this simulator, I assumed that imp poisons was always better.
2) I did not say that DP would not fall off. In fact, it does. Even if your target has 0% dodge, you have 0% miss, you have 5/5 imp poison, and you are making an attack every .8 seconds for the entire fight, DP will fall off eventually.
However, if the fight works out such that DP spends enough time at a full stack without improved poisons, the 4% per point damage boost from vile poisons works out to a greater DPS increase, than the 2% increase chance to apply on hit from improved poisons. That said, for most fights, improved poisons has the edge as a talent - it's just important to acknowledge that it isn't always the superior talent.
1) I did not jump to any conclusions. My statements are based on the simulations I ran. In fact, until I made this simulator, I assumed that imp poisons was always better.
2) I did not say that DP would not fall off. In fact, it does. Even if your target has 0% dodge, you have 0% miss, you have 5/5 imp poison, and you are making an attack every .8 seconds for the entire fight, DP will fall off eventually.
However, if the fight works out such that DP spends enough time at a full stack without improved poisons, the 4% per point damage boost from vile poisons works out to a greater DPS increase, than the 2% increase chance to apply on hit from improved poisons. That said, for most fights, improved poisons has the edge as a talent - it's just important to acknowledge that it isn't always the superior talent.
Hmm, Reading this, I'm questioning myself when I went the standard 20/41/0 combat swords, with vile poisons for the added dps. I do notice occasions where the poisons fall off or even don't stack up very quickly, but it seems fairly rare for myself. Granted, I have DST, Double Mongoose, Snd up all the time, but I still see it fall off occaisionally. The question is, on most fights, wouldn't it be more cost effective to shiv it to stay on (if you notice that it might fall off of a 5stack) and keep 4/5 Vile poisons, rather than take imp poisons and still, theorhetically, have it fall off occasionally?
Hmm, Reading this, I'm questioning myself when I went the standard 20/41/0 combat swords, with vile poisons for the added dps. I do notice occasions where the poisons fall off or even don't stack up very quickly, but it seems fairly rare for myself. Granted, I have DST, Double Mongoose, Snd up all the time, but I still see it fall off occaisionally. The question is, on most fights, wouldn't it be more cost effective to shiv it to stay on (if you notice that it might fall off of a 5stack) and keep 4/5 Vile poisons, rather than take imp poisons and still, theorhetically, have it fall off occasionally?
Lol, I understand that. What I'm asking is for a model of the difference between 1-2 shivs a fight + 12% more dmg on your poison ticks VS. having 4/5 imp poisons and STILL having the chance that poisons will drop off and NOT getting the extra 12% dmg from the ticks.
I know it's probably not worth it, but I have yet to see a high-end raiding rogue with imp poisons over vile poisons, it just doesn't happen. So, unless almost every top-end raiding rogue is an idiot (which MOST of them are not), why would I put points into imp poisons over vile? please, do tell.
11/10/07, 2:55 PM
Similar Threads
