[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet - Page 48

Ellos · 09/18/07, 3:56 PM

I changed the import function in this version, and well, I wonder that it makes problem with the new buff, because I'm searching now for the right cell, so there shouldn't be a copy.

I'll see if there are problems.

Windfury havn't become any change you would sense. It's only a change to make no more problems with the import

Radmsc · 09/18/07, 4:22 PM

Today I downloaded the newest version of the spreadsheet (2.2.0.13). Now I wanted to fill in my own gear, but at almost every dropdown-menu it only showes "none" together with the item which was already there. Most of the time I select "none" first, then look at the list again and then all the items are there again. This started to get annoying. But after I got to the chest item, it doesn't show anything at all. Any explanation possible on this bug?

Ellos · 09/18/07, 4:54 PM

check your options.
Is the "only show DPS Upgrade" Option marked?

Makdoh · 09/18/07, 5:37 PM

Lately I've considered speccing "back" to mutilate as our raid progress is not that demanding anyway and I still want to be able to do some PVP. I then composed a build that looks pretty much like this.

Then I noticed that - according to this spreadsheet (.13 version) - I would do less DPS with improved SnD than without it (around 15 less).
Is this a bug or do I miss something important?

Radmsc · 09/18/07, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ellos

check your options.
Is the "only show DPS Upgrade" Option marked?

d'oh, srry :s

Allthough I don't get the point of that option. Can you explain it a bit further please?

Stabmaster · 09/18/07, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Radmsc

d'oh, srry :s

Allthough I don't get the point of that option. Can you explain it a bit further please?

The drop-downs will only show items that are DPS upgrades to your current gear, if you have that option checked...

Kinesia · 09/18/07, 9:25 PM

Hmmm, but how would you know for _sure_ that they weren't upgrades without selecting them and seeing what the results were?
The spreadsheet seems too complicated for that.
Surely if we already knew that "these items were the only upgrades" then we wouldn't need any other part of the sheet?

Kuk · 09/18/07, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Sinister Strike:
0% miss
5% dodge
28.5% crit
66.5% hit
Overall AP boost: (0.285 * 2.369 + 0.665) * 2.784 * AP Bonus DPS = 3.731 * AP Bonus DPS
AP boost/energy: 9.33% of AP DPS per energy

Backstab:
0% miss
5% dodge
57% crit
38% hit
Overall AP boost: (0.57 * 2.369 + 0.38) * 3.315 * AP Bonus DPS = 5.736 * AP Bonus DPS
AP boost/energy: 9.56% of AP DPS per energy

Yes, I neglected to take into account the damage bonus scaling the AP bonus as well. This quite clearly shows that weapon normalisation is not the issue.

Originally Posted by Vulajin

The real area of advantage for sword spec versus daggers is caused by the offhand sword spec mechanic: when your offhand sword causes a sword spec proc, the extra attack granted is performed by your main hand at no penalty to your normal main hand swings. Thus, rather than a 5% increase in offhand swings, your main hand swings are actually increased by 5% times the ratio of your main hand speed to your offhand speed. For a setup like mine (2.7 main hand, 1.5 offhand), I get a 5% * (2.7 / 1.5) = 9% increase to my total main hand swings just from my offhand.

Were it not for PPM procs, this wouldn't be a big deal. However, PPM procs are designed to normalize to the base speed (or possibly hasted speed, but they almost definitely don't take extra attacks into account) of your weapon to guarantee a certain average number of procs per minute. With my fast offhand, slow main hand, and sword spec, I'm getting about 14% more main hand attacks per minute than the system expects me to get. So I'll experience 14% more of any procs that rely on the main hand, and about 7% more attacks overall for procs that can occur from either hand.

This would appear to be the crux of the issue. As has been stated, swords seem to be a strictly better alternative to daggers in every sense. Being that there is no reason to choose to use daggers over swords (beyond having daggers shoved down our throats through itemisation) even in spite of the dearth of swords between Black Morass and Black Temple/Hyjal, we've ended up in the position of one spec being clearly better than any other.

Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, however it calls into question the raison d'etre for dagger spec and the abundance of dagger drops as you progress up the progression path. I think it's fair to say that for guilds reaching SSC and higher, performance takes precedence over preference, and rogues at that level (myself included) using daggers are doing so because they're constrained by drops, and given the choice of swords at the same item level would respec in a heart beat.

I think I liked it better when sword spec reset the swing timer. Back then, sword spec was the spec your grandma could play; you could get decent, if not spectacular DPS. You specced daggers to get the payoff of higher DPS for a little more effort. Every iteration of sword spec since then has seemed to nudge the spec farther ahead, such that now, why bother putting up with the positional requirements of daggers? Am I the only one seeing the disconnect between what is being communicated by the abundance of dagger itemisation and what the mechanics are proving to be the better spec?

Cyn · 09/18/07, 10:11 PM

Have the points of the thread Proc Per Minute Mechanics and Haste been considered by the people maintaining this spreadsheet.

This threads seems to contain some very pertinent information, that could have some rather large effects on rogue DPS, yet i haven't seen anyone really mention it at all in this thread.

• Vulajin · 09/19/07, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Cyn

Have the points of the thread Proc Per Minute Mechanics and Haste been considered by the people maintaining this spreadsheet.

This threads seems to contain some very pertinent information, that could have some rather large effects on rogue DPS, yet i haven't seen anyone really mention it at all in this thread.

Note that none of the behavior we've uncovered in that thread is new or changed; rather, we simply misunderstood and misrepresented the game mechanics based on assumptions that things still behaved a certain way.

In other words, actual in-game DPS isn't changed. Spreadsheet DPS estimates do change, but not by a huge amount. I modified my personal DPS spreadsheet to reflect the discoveries in the thread you cited, and my DPS estimate dropped from 1415.02 to 1397.02.

Ellos · 09/19/07, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by Makdoh

Lately I've considered speccing "back" to mutilate as our raid progress is not that demanding anyway and I still want to be able to do some PVP. I then composed a build that looks pretty much like this.

Then I noticed that - according to this spreadsheet (.13 version) - I would do less DPS with improved SnD than without it (around 15 less).
Is this a bug or do I miss something important?

should be a bug, I'll look at this.

Ellos · 09/19/07, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Radmsc

d'oh, srry :s

Allthough I don't get the point of that option. Can you explain it a bit further please?

As already said, when you check this Option the list will only show DPS Upgraded (Depending on your AEP, so you should make a AEP Calculaion after every Item change, or check the Option for AEP to not use the macro).

I've made this in first case for an alternative to the Upgrade Search. But it won't work 100% correct I think, but it could be helping for Itemchoose.

Ellos · 09/19/07, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kinesia

Hmmm, but how would you know for _sure_ that they weren't upgrades without selecting them and seeing what the results were?
The spreadsheet seems too complicated for that.
Surely if we already knew that "these items were the only upgrades" then we wouldn't need any other part of the sheet?

I've got the AEP, so I've got a DPS Increase Value for 1 stat. With this values I can calculate the DPS for each Item and then compare this with the selected Item. When the DPS is positiv, it'll be an DPS Upgrade.

Thats the reason why you should have to calculate the AEP after each Itemchange (or select the non Macro AEP as I said above)

Kalman · 09/19/07, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Note that none of the behavior we've uncovered in that thread is new or changed; rather, we simply misunderstood and misrepresented the game mechanics based on assumptions that things still behaved a certain way.

In other words, actual in-game DPS isn't changed. Spreadsheet DPS estimates do change, but not by a huge amount. I modified my personal DPS spreadsheet to reflect the discoveries in the thread you cited, and my DPS estimate dropped from 1415.02 to 1397.02.

More generally, we assumed that behaviors derived from 3 procs (Fiery, Lifestealing, and Crusader) were valid for *all* procs.

As it turned out, we just happened to test with the 3 procs that use a different mechanic.

Cyn · 09/19/07, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Note that none of the behavior we've uncovered in that thread is new or changed; rather, we simply misunderstood and misrepresented the game mechanics based on assumptions that things still behaved a certain way.

In other words, actual in-game DPS isn't changed. Spreadsheet DPS estimates do change, but not by a huge amount. I modified my personal DPS spreadsheet to reflect the discoveries in the thread you cited, and my DPS estimate dropped from 1415.02 to 1397.02.

I realise that ingame dps wont change, but when this spreadsheet is used to make gear choices that sometimes only differ by a few dps, if it doesn't model game mechanics correctly, it starts to lose it's purpose