presagio

I do not think so, of course the model is more complicated and without too much effort we cannot came to a 100% realistic model but the current sheet is really too weird in it, the difference is too big and i think we can solve this.

The current problem is that with seal fate i go from 0,257 hemo per second to 0,361.
It's not a problem of seal fate, it's a problem somewhere in the sheet that consider more hemo instead of more cp from seal fate procs.

EDIT:

Doing some test on the sheet:
yesterday i have done a zull Aman with quite no raid buff
and my recount show a dps of 720.

Using the same buff/talents/equip on the sheet:

With the current sheet version the 31/0/30 gives:
871,79 buffed dps

editing the Buffed DPS Q 17 cell forcing hemo per second as it was before using sealfate in talents:
789,11 buffed dps

 

Mikhael

I just threw in Spinesever. With my current tri-spec hemo (11/27/23), it is the best ranged weapon in game.

 

songster

More CP = more finishers = more relentless procs = more hemo, possibly? Wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference though.

 

Faytte

The energy from relentless either counter acts (snd/rupture) or diminishes the cost of a finisher (evisc/envenom). It doesnt give you ~more~ energy in return, so I do not see how you could say SF/Relent=more hemo. Just seems to be more finishers.

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

presagio

I have looked a little deeply in the sheet and
the effect it's true for sinister strike too.

With Seal Fate the sheet is converting cp generation into instant attack.
Doing a primary inspection of Buffed cycles it seems that the cycle is choosen looking at seal fate procs
and so i have a 21 seconds cycle with 4 slice/5 rupture.
Then the sheet calculate the number of istants per second based on this, taking into account ruthlessness but not Seal Fate.

So for the sheet i'm doing about 8 hemorrage in 21 seconds and this is incrementing my hemo dps.

I think that solving this issue will give to us an acceptable results in seal fate builds theorycrafting.

 

iuron

I'm experiencing the same problem with agression and backstab. There are no changes if I remove those three talent points. I'm not very experienced in Excel. All I could see is that in the BuffedDPS and UnBuffedDPS-Sheets the formula includes a factor "talents!I24" (i.e. Agression) which seems to have no impact on the actual DPS shown on the Talents or Gear-Buff-Sheet. Removing the referral to "talents!I24" nevertheless makes a difference on the Unbuffed/Buffed-DPS-Sheets in the results of the formulas. But not in J4 concerning the "Actual DPS" nor in H4.

(MS Excel 2004 for Mac)

 

Dontmindme

Look at post #1093 of this thread:
I have posted the corrections to 4 cells that fixes two current issues with the sheet:
1) That Aggression, Surprise Attacks and Opportunity bonuses are additive and not multiplicative.
2) That Aggression was not applying to Backstab.

As to the energy modeling with Seal Fate. I ran into a similar issue this weekend when looking over the sheet. I was trying to determine the value of the 4-piece T4 bonus (alone, not with the gear stat changes) and by forcing the bonus on, my DPS actually decreased (including a change in the recommended cycle). Going further, I discovered that the DPS value of 1s/5r cut actually dropped 4 DPS with the addition of "free" combo points (and the same exact stats). The same problem could be observed by changing the combo point generation percentage on the cycle sheet itself. Playing around with it further, there seemed to be some issue with the cut cycle modeling with respect to combo point generation in the example I looked at. The 1s/5s cut result just looked wrong on the chart. This also makes me question the values the sheet shows for Relentlessness, as I haven't isolated what is actually happening to cause these anomalies. It certainly seemed to have something to do with combo point generation though. If I recall correctly, the sheet has had historical problems with the 4-piece T4 modeling anyway.

I didn't have any more time to look at it, but hope to again at some point this weekend. One possible explanation I had, was that the cycle was cut so short from excess combo points, that one would be better off throwing an extra Instant with the energy saved. But given the weird Seal Fate numbers, its possible there is a more significant typo somewhere. If I find out anything more definite, it will be posted here.

 

Oki

After a typical Gruuls I find that 30/0/31 delivers much less than calculated by the spreadsheet, its worse even by standard sword spec

 

Stabmaster

It's definitely overstated on the spreadsheets, but I have a question: did you completely regem and possibly reitemize to get more Agil and Crit instead of Hit? You need to stack the hell out of Agil and Crit to make that spec work.

 

Oki

I already have loads of agility gems (not much hit)

Well total miss (dodge/miss) was 24%... appaling

The other rogue (combat daggers) had 7%

2.8 hemo crits are sweet though

Check WWS log here

 

tehoreoz

I'd like to compare some gear towards the new badge/ZA loot but unfortunately spreadsheet and even the aep site it links to are unupdated =[

 

Zauvirr

I've been using the spreadsheet and im debating on using a 11/28/22 build but i would like more clarfication as to how the hemo debuff is calculated into hemo's overall dps. Basicly I would like to know if this is counting for all 10 charges to be used up by yourself or is there calculations for the raid using some?

Any information or directories would be very helpful, I've been searching the WoW forums, EJ forums and this piticular thread in general for an answer.

Also, does anyone have any actual comparisons of 20/41/0 dps and 11/28/22 dps I could look at?

 

hashi825

Id have to say that you'd need a fair more amount of crit than you have to come close to the calculated dps of the spreadsheet with sf/hemo, with that said im gonna try it tonight.

 

songster

There are two places you can set the Hemo debuff:

1) In the "buffs" section. In this case, it applies the Hemo debuff to all your own attacks. This is a valid assumption when soloing, but not in a group situation.

2) In the "talents" section. In this case, it adds an estimated amount based on the assumption that all charges are always used. This is a valid assumption in a group situation, but not when soloing.

You should never tick both of these at the same time as you will end up double-counting charges.

 

Oki

Bollocks to that, the damage is off by a mile with the gems I have and entered in the spreadsheet, no need to waste money getting gems

 

Hashshashin

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm blind and retarded.

 

Ariose

Um, look up two posts.

 

Sveta

Hey guys, first post here. Today's raid I passed on my T5 legs, I had the DKP to get it but I passed it to another rogue. My roguemate is also 3/5 with his T5 now, I currently have none and only using Karazhan loots and 2 T4s. My hit rating is 293 and crit is at 22.3%. He is also using a Talon, and I'm using a Spiteblade, however our DPS isn't very far off. Maybe 30-40 DPS difference in a tank and spank boss like Morogrim. I would have expected more, which leads to my conclusion that because the T5 is lacking alot of hit rating, and with the new hit cap, its making it worse. I have no idea though, this is a speculation, and I know alot of high end rogues have really high crit and low hit. I have been using this spreadsheet for a while now and its working fantastically. I just want to know that if the T5 4piece bonus is still worth it to get, will it be HUGE? Thanks for reading, and its nice to finally post something. *lurks*

 

Grunge

Well, to be frank the dps difference is most likely due to skill or difference in gear (ie if he has 3/5 t5 but awful gemming choices and non-set pieces) then the small difference is understandable. Also T5 starts to shine when you get 4/5 due to the setbonus.
As for the lack of hit rating. Remember that anything over 305 is a waste on trash anyway (and we have 20 hit food now.) so it's probably not the cause of his low dps.
Although for combat builds I wouldn't want to fall too much below 250 (CP will be too erratic for proper cycles).
There's really so many factors that can alter his / your dps so without knowing his gear it's not possible to analyze the reasons for it.

As for T5 4/5 it's pretty huge yes. Bloodsea+4/5 T5 is the best you can do for those slots before T6.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Sveta

Thank you sir, I'll take your word for it

 

• Latito

I would argue for Bloodsea + Skulker + Engineering + T5 gloves + T5 shoulders.. or possibly replace the T5 pieces with T4 to get the set bonus. Depends on the rest of your gear a bit, but certainly easier to get (for most rogues) and probably better dps.


As for "need to get X hit rating".. thats just junk. Yes, if you let your hit fall REALLY low it will make cycles harder to maintain due to larger fluctations in energy regen, however if you have the choice between 20 crit rating and 15 hit rating.. the crit IS better. 50 AP or 15 hit.. the AP is better. Stacking hit to the cap but leaving your AP and other stats crippled just means you ALWAYS hit like a wimp. Pick pieces of gear that are going to give you the most benefit. Hit is the best stat per rating point, but its not infinitely better.

Oh.. and generally, if you're comparing yourself to another rogue and the gear difference is not reflected on the dps charts - the biggest factor is most likely at place.. skill. Personal skill plays a large part in your dps.

 

koaschten

1% hit chance requires 15.76 rating.
1% crit chance requires 22.08 rating.

Per definition you are comparing 0.95% hit with 0.90% crit. I wouldn't argue about 0.05% difference, BUT item budget wise, the crit rating is more expensive. So you gain more from the hit rating as it spends less item budget and leaves more room for other stats.

 

Fands

I've brought this up before, but I show GoA above WF according to your spreadsheet and in RL i show it +/- real life dps. Ppl's response for rogue DPS has been only "if a shaman spec's into it its better". or "its better for warrior."
But I could care less about warrior's dps, let them eat a boss with no aggro drop. And the shaman buff is 30% *IF* they are enhancement. How many of those are dancing around?

This is along the same lines as which you should put on your OH and which you should put on your MH (deadly vs. instant). I find that it makes no difference.

As for GoA, I show a 6 dps GoA upgrade (for my gear) over a windury build. Just wondering if this is another thing like rupture (4s/5e vs 1s/5r *gasp*) where rogues are so hardlined that they won't try something new or that this is an artefact of the dps spreadsheet.

I'd like to see the numbers.

 

koaschten

@Fands Did you try to see if its the same if you use the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet? I don't know what your buffed DPS is (i would have plugged your gear in the spreadsheet *hint* update your profile *hint*) but for me, i wouldn't boggle my mind for 6 dps. I guess i wouldn't even re-gem a single slot for 6 dps while sitting at 1500-1700dps in a raid environment depending on group composition.

edit: Guess i found you The World of Warcraft Armory
0/31/30 specced. A simple respec to 11/28/22 would net you around 50dps while 19/42/0 is en par with 11/28/22.
But yes, i see the same 6 dps difference you see going from wf/dp to agi/dp/ip

 

hashi825

ya that appears to be so, even with my fairly high crit rate + bt trinket CP generation felt very sluggish compared to ordinary combat swords. Id find myself just trying to keep 5s/5r going, that was pretty much its downfall.