I actually took that into account in my spreadsheet. It's definitely not making the difference.

I also took this into account.

Hum, how about Shiv spam with DP/Envenom? With the poison talents it really does a lot more DPE than either rupture or eviscerate, and it would stack so fast that you wouldn't be losing DP ticks. The usual reason for using IP rather than DP with Shiv is because "extra" DP procs give you no damage gain once it's fully stacked. Using Envenom would allow you to parlay those extra DP procs into large finishers.

Envenom's a tad more expensive than Rupture, so I guess the minimal cycle would be something like 2s/5env, while a longer cycle would be 5s/Xr/5env

Well, I was pulling numbers from a spreadsheet, but sure, I'll redo them right here in napkin math format:

Assuming Spiteblade and Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade. Let's also go ahead and assume raid buffed AP of 3000, crit rate of 30%, and you're hit-capped for specials. Also, you have a Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. And of course, you have both Aggression and Surprise Attacks. Finally, assume 30% armor reduction. Instant Poison is used on the offhand if Shiv is used.

SS Damage = (Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * (1 + Surprise Attacks + Aggression)
((165 + 308) / 2 + 3000 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * (1 + 0.10 + 0.06) ~= 985

0% miss
5% dodge
28.5% crit
66.5% hit

Avg. Damage = SS Damage * (2 * RED * Crit% + Hit%) * Armor
985 * (2 * 1.03 * 0.285 + 0.665) * 0.7 ~= 863
Avg. Energy = 8 * (Miss% + Dodge%) + 40 * (Crit% + Hit%)
(8 * 0.05 + 40 * 0.95) = 38.4
Avg. DPE = 863 / 38.4 ~= 22.47

Shiv Damage = (Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4) * Surprise Attacks * Offhand Penalty
((102 + 191) / 2 + 3000/14 * 2.4) * 1.10 * 0.75 ~= 545

0% miss
0% dodge
30% crit
70% hit

Avg. Damage = Shiv Damage * (2 * RED * Crit% + Hit%) * Armor + Instant Poison * Spell Hit%
545 * (2 * 1.03 * 0.30 + 0.70) * 0.7 + 170 * 0.83 ~= 644
Avg. Energy = 20 + (OH Speed * 10) = 35
Avg. DPE = 644 / 35 ~= 18.40

Additionally, both weapons have a chance to get a sword spec proc. Let's assume that you're also hit capped for white attacks:

Sword Spec Damage = (Damage + AP / 14 * MH Speed) * Sword Spec% * (1 - SS/Shiv Miss% - SS/Shiv Dodge%)
SS/Sword Spec Damage = ((165 + 308) / 2 + 3000 / 14 * 2.7) * 0.05 * 0.95 ~= 38.72
Shiv/Sword Spec Damage = ((165 + 308) / 2 + 3000 / 14 * 2.7) * 0.05 * 1.00 ~= 40.75

0% miss
5% dodge
30% crit
65% hit

SS/Sword Spec Avg. Damage = 38.72 * (2 * 1.03 * 0.30 + 0.65) * 0.7 ~= 34.36
Shiv/Sword Spec Avg. Damage = 40.75 * (2 * 1.03 * 0.30 + 0.65) * 0.7 ~= 36.17

SS/Sword Spec Avg. DPE = 34.36 / 38.4 ~= 0.89
SS Total DPE ~= 23.36

Shiv/Sword Spec Avg. DPE = 36.17 / 35 ~= 1.03
Shiv Total DPE ~= 19.43

I won't go in-depth into the cycle calcs, but the base DPE difference is enough alone, I think.

sorry if that has been asked already but i kinda am too lazy to read up the last 30 pages.

would with the right spec grace of air outpreform wf in a 2xrogue, druid, shaman, warrior group in terms of overall group dps?

ok. i switched around in the spreadsheet a bit. and came up with this spec (combat swords):

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

now i dropped out wf for grace of air and put instant poisen on the mainhand.

my Raid & potion buffed stats:
291 hit
3036 ap
31% crit

using 2 merc swords. no haste (except for abacus)

i came up with 6.72 less dps. but now if you consider wf doesen't help a dps druid at all. and a shaman already has his wf enchant on his weapon. woulden't grace of air be better for the overall group dps? or would it hurt the dps warrior too much? i have no experience with warriors at all therefor the question

[edit]

ok if the shaman has improved totems i woulden't loose any dps at all. its exactly 0.00 on my spreadsheet

Before they nerfed WF, it was always better for a DPS group with a War. Now that the WF nerf is in place, its less of an improvement over GoA, but still provides better numbers. When the 2.3 PTR rolls around, several members of this forums will be testing in detail the benefits of WF and GoA and detailing how much benefit each of the totems has.

A question for the "pro" rogues out there...

I'm generally the top-dps rogue in the guild despite being probably the third-best geared. you can see my armory here: Aniwen

On gruul, my best DPS number ever on a flawless fight, 2 rogue 1 warrior 1 shaman 1 feral group, was 994. I outdpsed the #2 person in the raid by about 150 dps. I felt pretty bad ass, but since then I've received 0 upgrades and 0 changes to my gear and, with the numerous nerfs and such, I've noticed my DPS go down considerably (I still haven't broke 1k dps on Gruul). The spread between me and the other dps/rogues has shrunk from 150 to 10-30, and recently I was beat by a rogue on the Aran fight (we still do Karazhan on occasion despite the majority of raiders being done with the zone - you can see from my armory why I was in on Aran)

However looking at the spreadsheet, looking at the numbers other people are posting and the DPS people are showing on similar or LESSER geared rogues, I can only assume I'm pushing the wrong buttons.

These are the things I do to maximize my dps without pulling aggro -- I'll use Gruul as an example because it's a pretty straight forward fight for rogues and we're pretty much free to play after the first shatter.

I run windfury/deadly. On the run in, I let the tanks get aggro ( for about 5 seconds after repositioning stops). I start in with shivs, putting up 5 deadlies and a full rupture before the first shatter. I throw in a feint to keep myself from taking a hateful. I stay in until shatter knocks me away, shivving as soon as he yells "no more" or whatever to preserve deadly, cloak mid air and find a safe spot (usually not a problem, usually fairly close to gruul). I run back in and shiv to save my 5/5 deadly and hit SnD with about 3-4 combo points on him. I put a few more SSs in to him, up to about 4 combo points. I then blow my ADRush, BF and Bloodlust Trinket, get to 5CP and rupture while watching threat, careful to vanish when I near-pass tank#2. I build up CPs again, feinting if I haven't vanished yet, not if I have, and rupture again before my trinket wears off. I then SS/rupture spam, keeping snD up (generally with 1 CP) and shiv rarely (only to keep deadly up if it's about to tic off). I dont feint at this point as usually I wont need to. I hit BF/Trinket again when they're both up and put in two more trinketed-5p ruptures in to gruul. If I need to vanish again when it's back up, I do and break it with Garrote.

AFAIK, that's the ultimate rotation and I have very little time where I'm not slaughtering the boss or where my deadly has ticked off, yet I still seem to be way low on the damage. The spreadsheet says I should be at 1250dps or so, yet I've never come close to that and have never finished a boss fight above 1k dps.

One thing I do do that I've heard is bad is buttom-spam, I tap SS (2) about 3 times a second - is this really going to lower my damage a lot? At all?

I've never been out-damaged in a non-guild run (the few that I do) though I rarely PUG it with superiorly geared rogues and only once out-damaged in a 10man raid (which I died on because some wank kicked arcane missiles and he clubbed me in the face unexpectedly).

What am I missing? I've read through this whole thing and I just can't figure it out for the life of me...

Vulajin, not that I'm advocating shiv spam, but did you factor in Combat Potency procs into your Shiv energy cost? It does (at least, I'm sure I read someone say it does - would need to be tested if this isn't held as accurate) proc CPot 20% of the time, so there should be a 3 energy reduction on the skill - netting 20.7 DPE on it ... which of course is still less than SS. Just adding for completeness. Also, IP can consume stormstrike debuffs (definitely not raid optimal) and probably is affected by Misery as well.

I think your priorities are a bit off. Deadly Poison is, in the total scheme of rogue DPS, one of the least significant contributors. Granted, for me it's about 70 DPS out of around 1300 projected, but it's nowhere worth Shivving to save a stack when you could instead Sinister Strike for more DPE. I can't remember the last time I intentionally Shivved in a raid, my DP stacks fall off all the time, and I still come out right on top of the meters basically every fight (only second to the other rogue in my guild, who wields Dragonstrike and has a Dragonspine Trophy, whereas I don't).

Don't vary your cycle so much. If Adrenaline Rush is active, you should be building up to 5 CP and doing Rupture unless there's already one up, in which case you should Eviscerate. In all cases you should use the minimum CP Slice and Dice you can afford. Since you have 2-piece Netherblade, outside of Adrenaline Rush I'm pretty sure you could be running 1s/5r (read that as 1 CP, Slice and Dice, 5 CP, Rupture, repeat) with only Sinister Strike, never ever Shiv. In general don't make exceptions unless Slice and Dice falls off super early. Personally I run 2s/5r instead of 1s/5r just to make sure Slice and Dice doesn't fall, and I find that to be slightly superior, but that's up to taste.

This is a myth. Common sense should tell you, as is true, that spamming buttons doesn't do anything to your DPS as a rogue. You are pretty much completely immune to lag except in situations where there's enough lag to prevent you from dumping your energy before it ticks over 100.

(edit - Actually, there's one situation where lag affects you. If you have 5 CP and you're sitting there waiting for a Rupture to tick off, you want to refresh that Rupture as close to the exact time of its last tick as possible. In this case, lag may affect your ability to chain the Rupture exactly.)

Finally, note that your DPS estimate from the spreadsheet is exactly that: an estimate. You will not likely ever hit this number exactly in a raid, unless you find ideal conditions where you never end up accidentally facing the mob (for example, when it turns in your direction to do an RSTS ability), people provide you with exactly the buffs you expected, and your enhancement shaman never misses a beat or (god forbid) dies. Not to mention the assumption that you actually get to DPS the boss for an entire fight without losing any time to movement or bandaging or whatever.

(edit 2 - You might also see slight DPS increases if you socket slightly more for hit and agility. I'd recommend filling red sockets with +4 hit/+4 agi and yellow sockets with +8 hit if you want socket bonuses. Obviously, +4 agi/+6 sta in blue sockets.

thanks !

Heading in to lurker shortly, I'll pull shiv off my bar for him :P

I think the most frustrating part of this whole calcuation is realizing how CLOSE Shiv is to being the replacement for SS, which would make for a much more interesting playstyle for combat rogues - you could have 1SS, SnD, (5-DP procs on whitehits)x Shiv + (DP Procs on White Hits)x SS Envenom styled cycles that would really increase the interactiveness of playing a combat rogue.

If you reduced the energy cost of Shiv across the board by 5, it becomes comparable - if you reduce it by 7 across the board, it starts winning. Give us poison resists based on hit rating (and find some way to balance that in PvP) and you're talking about a whole new game.

The problem is, if Shiv had comparable DPE to Sinister Strike, it would be kinda overpowered in PvP since you could Shiv spam forever, dealing as much damage as if you were Sinister Striking and getting poison procs on every single one and being able to do it regardless of being disarmed or not.