Ariel

I've been thinking the difference in AEP values for Haste vs Hit is a bit too high in the current spreadsheet and trying to find out what's causing it. Well, I haven't been able to find the problem, but I do think I've narrowed it down a little, and I'm hoping by posting here someone better with this sort of math can pinpoint the problem -- or point out the error in my logic.

If we just focus on Buffed DPS, cell Q14 (Main Hand Hits per second for white damage) and use my current gear as a baseline, we see:

Baseline:       0.49734227804823
Base -16 Hit:   0.492162148161698
Base -16 Haste: 0.496100735135942

I decided to go with -rating since I'm at the hit cap, and either way should produce valid results.

The important thing to see is that hit rating is producing more than 4x more hits per second than haste rating (.0051 vs .0012). This has a pretty significant effect on the dps values of procs and would explain why the biggest source of the dps gap between hit and haste is coming from Windfury, Sword Spec and Mongoose uptime.

Now, logically I would assume that the only difference in hits per second between haste and hit would be due to the fact that attacks generated from haste can miss, but with a miss + dodge rate of only 2.6%, that definitely doesn't account for the discrepancy.

So does anyone have any thoughts on what I'm seeing here?

PS: As an added note, when I was digging through the guts of the sheet, I see that 2 is hardcoded as the crit multiplier in a lot of places, and it should be changed to "cfact" to account for RED. But that's a pretty minor issue.

Edit: Further analysis says the problem is Buffed DPS cell Q39, Average Haste. Adding 1% haste rating only increases Average Haste by .344%, when I would expect a number closer to 1.3%.

Edit2: =(I2+I3+I5+I6)/((I2+I3)/Q37)-1 seems like the correct formula for Buffed DPS Q39. This gets MH HPS within 15% for 1% hit vs 1% haste. I would expect them to be closer with only 2.6% miss + dodge, but overall this is a lot closer to what I would expect.

 

Grunge

Well you underestimate 4pc t5 by a lot.
I ran with it until Illidan when I swapped Connivers (Bloodsea never dropped when I was first on dkp...) for T6 and picked up gloves->shoulders->pants for 2 & 4 pc.

Contrary to the popular belief 2pc t4 is NOT a huge dps increase. It's very nice however since it allows you to have a very short cycle (ie. 1s/5r), but that in it self isn't a huge increase.
2pc T5 sucks for anything except mutilate, so I'd rather have t5 gloves+Hydross shoulders if I couldn't get 4pc t5.
As for 4pc t5 being hard to get. If you're stepping into BT, then you must've killed Vashj anyway. So I wouldn't say it's hard to get.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

• Latito

Hehe, I just sorta picked numbers out of my ass - just trying to demonstrate that although 1 hit rating > 1 crit rating, its not by a LOT. Certainly 1% crit > 1% hit. The mere fact that 1% crit takes ~22 rating while 1% hit takes 15.77 rating is what makes hit a nicer stat for us when looking at item budgets and stuff. I'm sure we both agree on all of this, just a wording difference.


Fair enough - I never had 4/5 T5.. in fact I only ever picked up a single piece of T5 (the gloves). I did however have extensive experience with 2/4 T4, and while the spreadsheets may not give it a ton of credit, its a very handy set bonus to have. It really helps smooth out the cycles and makes starting cycles a lot quicker - an important factor with all the movement in TBC fights. Personal preference I suppose.

You'll note I said "T5 gloves + T5 shoulders.. or possibly replace the T5 pieces with T4 to get the set bonus" - I agree that the T5 2pc is useless for anyone but a mutilate rogue, and lets not get started about mutilate in raids. Picking between set and offset pieces is probably something better left to the spreadsheet anyways - nevermind that MOST people will be limited by their luck with drops and their dkp.

In regards to ease of 4pc T5, I guess I am once again at a bit of a different position. While I had ample opportunity to collect the pants, gloves and shoulders.. as for helm/chest, I never saw a single Champion drop. I guess most rogues will end up farming Vashj considerably more than I did, and probably Kael as well. Oh well, Illidan's blindfold suits me just fine.

 

koaschten

Slight derail, 4 weeks pre-2.3 i started organizing a PuG for Vashj, it was horror, but resulted in a nice belt at least. On paper that belt is just too good. This just reminds me of... [Latro's Shifting Sword] should have expertise now either.

Someone should let an admin know to flush the item tooltip cache to remove all those weapon-skill

 

• Latito

Ah yes.. Latro's and 100-deaths.. the two items probably most OP for their placement on bosses. I guess Spinesever would go on that list now too..

 

Violett

Or I'm missing smth or this DPS spreadsheet is kinda wrong ...
Lets take AEP table for example - with Deadliness it gives 0.49 AEP to one AP point - without 0.55 AEP O_o How can this be ? 1 ap > 1.1 ap ?
1 hit = 0.8 AEP, 1 haste = 0.7 AEP
With Sinister Calling and without same AEP values - 1agi = 1.15agi ?
Maybe I'm doing smth wring ?

 

songster

Remember that the AP you get from Agility will also be affected by Deadliness.

 

todemax

The more ap you have, the less important it gets to increase that number. Was this what you were asking for? Found your question a bit hard to decipher.

 

• Rerox

Future of the Spreadsheet?
as Ellos mentioned a few pages back 2.3 sheet would be the last he will take care of.
Now since 2.3 sheet is there I was just wondering who is going to take care of the sheet?
Are there enough people who are willing to invest their time into the sheet or is it time to switch over to other solutions?

 

Zurgat

It should be possible to force flush them, one by one.
Not sure on the exact url though, as i've no idea where the itemstats directory is located here.
Got the link from the itemstats on our DKP page, which uses the same plugin.

But anyway, this should give you an idea :
http://elitistjerks.com/itemstats//u...ifting%20Sword


Edit: Ah, it actually worked.
And [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], was already updated it seems.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

koaschten

offtopic but very handy *bookmark*

 

Andread

I'm having a problem with gem calculations, some gems are giving huge dps gains.

Edit: yes, it turned out I had broken my meta gem requirement at some point, thanks.

 

mih

meta gem requirement?

 

Sorrugis

Delete me.

 

◊ Hanos

Wrong thread?

 

Ariashley

Since I'm trying out the 11/27/23 spec for raiding, I've been going through the calculations again (having not looked at them for a while and not looked at all of them before). It looks to me like there is an error in the eviscerate calculations on the buffed and unbuffed cycle sheets, as well as an error in the rupture calculations. The rupture one is easy. Currently, the forumula for each combo point of rutpure has a +IF(Hemorrhage=1,36,0) tacked onto the end. The Hemo debuff does not apply to DoTs, so this segment of the formula should be removed.

The Eviscerate bit is more complicated. The formula currently shows:

 

Contents

1($X$3+$X$4*D9+ap*0.03)*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage 2((245+365)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D9*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage 3(((430+550)/2)+40*dm2p+ap*(D10*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage 4(((615+735)/2)+40*dm2p+ap*(D11*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage 5((800+920)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D12*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage 6((985+1105)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D13*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

[top]($X$3+$X$4*D9+ap*0.03)*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0) for 1 combo point

I went through and figured out what each bit was doing and get to:

=([(60+180)/2]+[60+180)/2]+40*dm2p(this is the T5 set bonus)*# combo points+ap*0.03)*[1*(1+(ievis*0.05))*(1+(agg*0.02))]*(1*%normal hit+2*%crit)*armor modifier+IF(Hemorrhage=1,36,0)

I'm not sure where the 60-180 numbers come from or why we would want to multiply that plus the set bonus for T5 * # combo points.

Corrected formula should be :

[top]((245+365)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D9*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0)

[top](((430+550)/2)+40*dm2p+ap*(D10*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0)

[top](((615+735)/2)+40*dm2p+ap*(D11*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0)

[top]((800+920)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D12*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0)

[top]((985+1105)/2+40*dm2p+ap*(D13*0.03))*$T$5*$O$4*$U$5+IF(Hemorrhage

1,36,0)

Replace the ap with uap for the unbuffed cycles spreadsheet.

Not sure that the Hemo debuff should be included (since it will likely have been used by the time you hit the mob with your finisher) - at least in a buffed situation. Probably will not have been used in an unbuffed situation.

 

Ariashley

Also, in cell X8 of the buffed and unbuffed cycle worksheets, hemo is calculated using a normalized weapon speed instead of actual weapon speed. Isn't hemo 125% of actual weapon damage, which is calculated using your actual weapon speed?

 

Professor Hurt

Hey all,

First time poster, long time reader. I just now started using the DPS spreadsheet and have what I assume are a few easy-to-answer questions. They're based on the following statement for combat builds which up to this point I took for fact: focus on attaining the hit cap (or come very close) before spending too much effort on other stats.

I've run with this mantra for months now and have hovered around 300 hit. However, with recent gear changes I've dropped back to 261. There are a few gems I could recycle into +hit but after downloading and filling out the spreadsheet, I found that my DPS would actually *decrease* if I did. To me, that means one of three things:

1) the spreadsheet isn't quite calculating the importance of +hit correctly
2) the mantra I've been following isn't true past some unknown quantity of +hit
3) I'm not understanding the numbers I read on the spreadsheet

For reference, here's my profile:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...gos&n=Concarne

Am I missing something? Is +hit calculated properly, and it's really true that a +4crt/+6sta gem grants me more dps than a +4hit/+4agil gem (which is what the sheet is telling me)? Am I too worried about the hard cold hit max, and at this point should I refocus on other stats such as AP?

Thanks in advance!

Concarne

 

Eyegore

I recommend reading this thread for 'how to rogue' information, including the value of +hit.
Roguecraft 101

P.S. meta-gem activation

 

◊ Hanos

Might want to spend some more time reading the stickies. You break just about every rule in your first post.

Reason your way through it, don't blindly trust the spreadsheet, it isn't always 100% right, but it normally gives you a general idea. Some things to think about without running all the numbers for you:
-What does +Hit Affect? Answer: White Damage... hint you are using a 71.7 DPS offhand and a 87.6 DPS Mainhand
-What does +Crit Affect? Answer: Everything except for Rupture and Poison... aka it will scale better with MH damage
-Why is +Hit superior? Answer: Combat Potency, Windfury and Sword Spec all proc off hits, but don't proc if you miss
-Meta Gems - Are you considering swapping out your gems that meet the meta gem requirement?

Go from there and if you have more specific questions we can go from there. Also... how does any rogue that gives a damn not have the Arena weapons by this point...

 

Karmon

Because some rogues give a damn about PvP

 

◊ Hanos

Not really following you here... how would caring about PvP prevent you from getting the arena weapons?

 

• Vulajin

I'm guessing it was a typo for "some rogues don't give a damn about PvP." However, this is kind of a subjective matter and not really on-topic to the thread whatsoever.

 

Eyes Brand

Using this spreadsheet, I've encountered something I can't readily explain. I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.

If I replace my T5 leggings with Shady Dealer's Pantaloons, I get a buffed DPS drop of 19.53 (1.25%). I know the 4/5 T5 set bonus is significant, but I had already broken that by changing gloves to T6 and shoulders to Shoulderpads of the Stranger (a change which yielded a positive change in buffed DPS).

My confusion is in part due to not knowing exactly how to value armour pen (in a general, broad-strokes fashion) as compared to other stats. Shadowpanther.net shows it at 6.6667 armour pen = 1 Agi. According to this, and accounting for the gem slot as +8 hit, the Pantaloons appear to come out ahead on that AEP scale. I'm not sure what figure to use if Shadowpanther's scale is inaccurate.

Insight would be appreciated!

 

Eyegore

long time, second time, so it feels weird to be repeating myself already. Eyes Brand, have you accounted for your meta-gem activation? Currently your pants have one of your two blues.