Eyes Brand

Riiight. I was hoping I was missing something.

Thanks!

 

Professor Hurt

I brought my topic up here because I thought, perhaps, it exposed a problem/weakness in the spreadsheet, and since +hit is so clearly tied to the prosperity of a PvE rogue (and has been for a very long time), why wouldn't I assume the spreadsheet wouldn't be 95 - 100% accurate? I posted here because I felt it *did* deal directly with the spreadsheet.

Hanos, thanks for reply. I have already gone over those questions in my mind since I started my rogue, and understand everything you were hinting at/outlined. The point of my post wasn't to ask "what is +hit and what does it do?!", it was to find out why the spreadsheet was telling me something that went against everything I *thought* I knew prior to using it. Finally, while I'd love an arena offhand, not everyone can spend the time outside of raiding to get one quickly. I'm working on it.

Re: my meta gem. Good point, I'll check.

 

Eyegore

Sorry I should have taken the time to be more clear. The only case I can think of where using a gem with stam on it over a gem with hit and/or agi would net a dps gain is if it is required for meta-gem activation. As for your other stat balance questions I would only be repeating what has been well said on these boards by many before me, so I will not take up any more of you time with that. I hope you find your answers.

 

Anked

Forgive me if this has been brought up before, but there is something I'm not understanding with the spreadsheet.

Why does the AEP rating for hit & expertise drop when you turn off rupture as a 19/42/0 combat sword build?

With "allow rupture" unchecked the AEP rating is as follows:
With "allow rupture" checked the AEP rating is as follows:
I know the cycles change from 3s/5r to 5s/5e as well as dps going down by a good chunk... but I don't get why hit and expertise rating lose value when you can't rupture... It might be something obvious or dumb, but then again perhaps it's not

There is another oddity about that check box. Apparently on mobs we're you can't use Rupture your SS and other damage go up where your finisher damage goes down and your melee damage remains constant. I can only assume this is because of the change in rotation from 3s/5r to 5s/5e with energy and combo point procs... but in that case I would think SS damage would go down when using a 5s/5e... not up?! I must be missing something here.

 

Sarlunas

It's not just hit and exp losing value, all stats except crit, agi and -armor go down. The reason is that evis is affected by crit and -armor while rupture is not, when the value of agi goes up all other stats go down since agi is the basis of the AEP system.

The 3s/5r and 5s/5e cycles both waste on average 10 energy that would otherwise be used on SS, the difference is that the rupture cycle is shorter so it wastes it more often and SS dmg goes down a little.

 

Karmon

Your are right Vulajin, but Hanos remark was likewise not on topic. I could not resist.
And for me, both PvP or Arena is a part of the game that does holds no interest what so ever.

 

Sykoh

Unsure as to where exactly to report this error, so pardon me if this is inappropriate.

When using the Item Compare and selecting the Master Assassin Wristwraps a "#N/A" error comes up. I don't do Excel so any assistance is welcome.

Gear 1 error:

[top]IF(R42

"",0,VLOOKUP(R42,BonusStats,3,FALSE))

Gear 2 error:

[top]IF(R107

"",0,VLOOKUP(R107,BonusStats,5,FALSE))

Thank you for your time and for an excellent source of information for Rogues.

 

Dontmindme

Ah, it looks like cr 2 is not in the ItemBonus table. Inserting a line similar to cr 3 with cr 2 in the ItemBonus sheet will fix the problem.

 

Sykoh

That made it perfectly clear......

Did you miss the words "I don't do Excel..."? Good thing I like to play with things to know how they work rather than relying on someone else to answer my question thoroughly.

Thank you, though, for the push start.

 

Anked

Ah, that makes sense. It's not really the others going down, it's that now different stats are more important... namely because crit is based off agility. Oversight on my part being that evis can crit and rupture can't... I was stuck on the fact that both are finishers and can't be dodged and nothing else was changing yet the numbers changed a noticeable amount.

I need more coffee...

Thanks for the light on the dark corners of my mind

 

Dontmindme

Well, or in other words...you'll have to wait until someone posts an update with the fix. Thank you for pointing out the bug so that whomever posts an update is aware of the issue. I was posting the solution as much to let anyone who might have had thoughts of posting an update know how to fix it (without the need to spend their time troubleshooting it), as to let you know that there is indeed a reproducible problem.

Since you do not "do Excel" and many cells and their positions are sensitive, you might have to just wait for the next update. Fortunately, that issue seems fairly limited in scope. Although there may be other items that have similar issues, the vast majority should be just fine. The issue is limited to new items that have a socket bonus of a type and value that hasn't been seen before. In this case, it appears that those bracers are the first item that gives a socket bonus of +2 critical rating.

 

cmecu

My first post, and just starting to read some threads.

Most of this theory craft is over my head. I understand what all the number crunching is, and im glad your all doing it

With that said, I was looking to increase my dps in raid as well. On most if not all fights, where I dont have to move alot ( or longer dps uptime ) I come out on top of the dps meter. Although my hit rating is 211 , I feel i could dish out more dps. My crit is around 31 % AP around 1730 ish.
I have been considering changing some of my gems to add + hit , becuase i feel that the more I hit, the more damage I will be doing, the more chance for an off hand hit getting a possible combat potency, and just over more landing blows.

Alot of this is overhwelming for me, because now since the release of ZA, and items that have Ignore targets AC, Haste items, its hard deciding what the best route to go in gear selection.

 

Oscarvil

Read the first post of this thread:

Roguecraft 101

And download one or other of the spreadsheets to see how to modify your gear.

 

cmecu

I am reading the rogue craft 101, how ever i dont see anything about downloading something to modify my gear. Is it a program ? or just a spread sheet ?

 

Oscarvil

You are posting in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread. Read the OP.

 

cmecu

I didnt see the Links on the left hand side of the OP, thats what thew me off :p I kept wondering what every one was talking. I see it now, and got it downloaded.

 

koaschten

General Tip after skimming over your armory profile, replace AP gems.
Red Sockets: either with Agility or Agility and Hit.
Yellow Sockets: Hit

General Answer: Check out the Sheets. There are occasions where socketing pure ap is more beneficent than socketing agi/hit, but most times this is a result of an already unbalanced stat attribution.

 

Tryss

There's some weird formatting going on in OpenOffice, I dunno if it's been the same for Excel. Most gem sockets stay greyed out even when gear is chosen that has a socket. A few switch to the green background. This has only been going on in the past few versions, old version of the spreadsheet worked fine.

Anyone know how to fix this? I'm not sure where the setting is to switch to the green background, or why some work and others don't, but it's kind of hard to read this way.

Edit: I figured it out, sort of, right after I posted. In Open Office, select a cell with a gem selection (the B column). Go to the Format menu, and select Conditional Formatting. The Condition 1 box will be checked, and in the edit box it will say something like (this example is from cell B13):

'Gear _ Buffs'.$D13

It should say:

'Gear _ Buffs'.$C13

The Meta Gem socket is a little different, still working on that one.

 

Katria

I've just started using the spreadsheet, and come up with a surprising result. For reference, my guild is only in Kara (working on Aran). So I've taken a couple of WWS logs out of curiosity, and come up with 600-660dps depending on the boss. Running the spreadsheet, I come up with around 820 dps.

I've input all the right buffs as far as I can tell, and have checked on boss defense and turned off rupture (since almost all of Kara so far is immune). I use the recommended 5s/5r cycle. Now some of the bosses require running around, and attumen has a nasty debuff, but it's a difference of about 20-30% in dps.

Should my actual dps differ this far from the ideal? I am fulling willing to accept that I'm doing something terribly wrong in practice...I top the meters by a LOT (out dpsing #2 by a good 30%); I mention this not as a way to brag but to point out that I don't have a good benchmark to compare myself to (#2 is a mage, the rogue I beat by 40% or more but hes shadowstep). I'd love to have a rogue kick my ass on the meter...give me a goal to shoot for and someone to get advice from. I was thinking I was doing pretty well but looking at the spreadsheet I think I'm missing out on something. Here's the WWS link from last night (the public version, so the names are changed):

Loading...

 

royaljester

I'm no aficionado, but....

Looking at the WWS, thats' for all fights, not including trash, correct? If so, some of those fights, you'll be able to do more than others, just based off the fight itself. Morose is horrible to gauge becuase you are attacking non-boss mobs at first, then a boss that disappears every so often. Curator, unless you're guild's ranged is godly,will have you on the flares, meaning lower dps. Try running Recap (Personal fav) on each fight, saving just the fight itself and the data set for that fight.

Also, using recap is a personal fav because you dont get way low dps marks just because you ran out or the boss disappears for 10 secs. DPS is defined as damage per second, so if you are out for those seconds, programs like SWStats count that as 0 into the equation, but recap doesnt count most of those against you, giving you a more realistic dps gauge if you had stayed in for the entire fight, more like the spreadsheet does. The more a-typical a fight is, the less the spreadsheet will be accurate. It looks at a fight where you are standing in the perfect spot with perfect cycles for the entire fight with perfectly average procs.

Another thing, looking at your armory, (which this has nothing really to do with the spreadsheet being accurate), take the 2 points out of assass and either put into vile poisons or into Vitality for more agi (not too much, but more is always good).

 

Katria

The overall table includes trash and all bosses; under browse you can select to see the stats on just different boss fights. I understand that some bosses are non-ideal because of running around...but looking at just the Attument fight, even considering time spent debuffed, it seems my dps is a long way from ideal.

I've never used recap...is this an in-game addon or web-based like WWS?

Yeah, my talents need adjustment. I've been debating dropping parry/riposte for PvP...and since I haven't decided on that I haven't re-done my talents yet, but thanks for the tip =)

Anyways, this is drifting a bit off-topic...essentially, I'd like to know how far my actual DPS should be expected to drift from what the spreadsheet says. Am I within a reasonable range from the ideal, or do I have a lot to learn?

 

Meedo

RJ above is correct, in that you measured an entire run there. The DPS spreadsheet is a measure of your output once you are in full swing, after you cycle (SnD and Rupture) are both up and running, and on bosses where a sustained level of DPS can be reached (not burst). On top of that, you can add in RL latency to mess up a few swings - it all adds up.

A really good benchmark in KZ is Shade himself ; he is very rogue friendly as there is zero threat issue, he doesn't move for the most part, and the Rogue doesn't need to move for anything save for AE. [Edit1] And you can rupture the crap off of him. I find meters very very close to the XLS for that fight.

The DPS spreadsheet is really good tweaking gems, making gear/talent adjustments etc., i.e. relative measures. It sometimes can be very good for predicting absolute measure in-game, but you need to be careful of the situation/conditions being measured.

To each their own, but you might wanna dump the 2 pts in MoD as suggested, as well as the points in Imp. Evis, and throw them into Vile Poisons. Prolly pull another 5% outta your build. With that, you would also be running 3r/5s, and with 2xT4 set-bonus, 1r/5s.

[edit2] Nice belt.

 

royaljester

True, but hearing that now. drop WWS as a benchmark. If you include the trash, you will never see your dps reach the spreadsheet. Trash just isn't made for cycles, period. I think trash alone usually drops my personal dps below 1k, even in hyjal/BT, so don't fret, trash is a dps killer for us since we have to change targets/maintain long cycles on a guy that dies relatively quick. That's where Recap or any other damage meter comes in. You can accurately look at the fight, by it self, and then look at your total dps. It's a third party addon you can get from curse gaming.

I would say, on average, my dps is usually within 90-95% of my spreadsheet dps. That is to say, on a fight like Winterchill (with lucky frosts/D&D), I can usually put out 1400-1450 dps. The spreadsheet shows around 1480-1500. so fairly close. Other fights, like Archimond, I can't get past 75-85%, just because of the nature of the fight. Use aran as a gauge, taking into account that you'll lose some dps by running out of the AE's and such, and then see how close you are. If you are more than say 10-15% away from the spreadsheet on dmg, saying 850 dps and you can only achieve 720~, you probably should make sure that you are getting buffs that you clicked and that maybe the person buffing you isnt dying early on.

 

• Vulajin

You do realize that, in WWS, you can look at individual fights. There's a drop-down menu where normally it says "Full Report." If you mouse over it you can choose any attempt on any boss.

 

Katria

This is what I was looking for, but thanks for all the replies and advice! We are going to try Aran again on Sunday...we should be able to down him this time. I'll check my stats for that fight and see if it's closer to what the spreadsheet says.