I will also say, my personal experience in getting very close/real numbers with spreadsheet vs. real world would be in the gear spreadsheet, put out by aldriana. This one has a few more features that I enjoy, but, at least in my experience, tends to be a bit high on actual dps done when compared.
Well according to both spreadsheets GoA>WF in most cases. The only reason that you have WF most of the time, is because you have a dps warrior in your group, and that they benefit more from Goa->WF than you do the other way around.
I have a very typical combat dagger spec. Yet when I try out different gems, I get more dps from the 4hit/4agi gems than the 8hit gems (Unb +0.02, buf +0.13). No socket bonus is affected. Any idea why? From what I've read so far it is supposed to be the other way around, but I might be wrong.
I have a very typical combat dagger spec. Yet when I try out different gems, I get more dps from the 4hit/4agi gems than the 8hit gems (Unb +0.02, buf +0.13). No socket bonus is affected. Any idea why? From what I've read so far it is supposed to be the other way around, but I might be wrong.
Hit's value increases if you have more powerful procs (combat potency, mongoose, dragonspine, sword spec, poisons, etc). As daggers, you already lack one of those, so it's value will go down a tad bit. But I can't find you in the armory, so I can't really tell if it's an issue with the sheet or not.
example. I am currently using the Malefic mask of shadows, over my tier 4 helm. I did this because it has 1.08 more hit and 1.10 more crit at the cost of 42 ap and a meta slot. How ever when i put my gear through the spread sheet it shows that tier 4 is superior to my current helm.
Am i wrong for doing this? Is the spread sheet to be trusted completely with out question?
example. I am currently using the Malefic mask of shadows, over my tier 4 helm. I did this because it has 1.08 more hit and 1.10 more crit at the cost of 42 ap and a meta slot. How ever when i put my gear through the spread sheet it shows that tier 4 is superior to my current helm.
Am i wrong for doing this? Is the spread sheet to be trusted completely with out question?
It does factor in set bonuses, and also the fact that the meta socket is monstrous if socketed with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. Malefic Mask is pretty mediocre.
When i put the helm on in the spread sheet I am only wearing 3 piece tier 4.
Equally, After reading the forums i was under the impression that executioner was a stronger enchant than mongoose. This according to the spread sheet was also knocked down.
Seems we'll need to get the sheet updated.
How big would the increase to the hemo buff have to be in order to cut even to what we currently get for raid dps increase?
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 8:50 AM.
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When i put the helm on in the spread sheet I am only wearing 3 piece tier 4.
Equally, After reading the forums i was under the impression that executioner was a stronger enchant than mongoose. This according to the spread sheet was also knocked down.
Should i re-enchant my weapons?
I'm pretty sure it hasnt been made clear yet which is better.
I'm using RogueDPS_2_3_0_3 recently and I find that "Executioner" is regarded as 210 -armor in the "Wep_ Enchants" page.We know that special attacks & SnD can increase the frequency of enchants like Executioner and Mongoose.To find out whether that is calculated I did a test:
-set MH Enchant as "none" in Gear _ Buffs page
-set Chest as "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass"
-reduce the -armor value of "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass" from 210 to 0
-save DPS
-set MH Enchant as Executioner ,get a increased DPS = A.
-backspace and icrease the -armor value of "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass" from 0 to 210,get another increased DPS = B.
A=B,so Executioner is regarded as a fixed value of 210 -armor instead of a changeful value affected by special attacks & SnD.
I did other tests in WoW:
In 62.85 minutes of only-MH-wep auto attack,I got 77 times of Executioner effect.
PPM = 77/62.85 ≈ 1.2,while PPM of Executioner used in the Spreadsheet is 1.0 .
My MH-wep speed is 2.7 in the test ,so the rate is 1.2/(60/2.7)= 5.4% .
Considering SnD & special attacks(use hemo here,1 hit/3.6s):
Actual PPM = 1.2*1.3 + 60/3.6*5.4% = 2.46 .
In 1 min you will have Executioner effect for 2.46*15 = 37s(61.5%),this number is a liitle fat because Executioner will not stack.
In another test( dual wield,hemo,SnD) , Executioner effect lasted for 1655s in 52.7min(52.4%) Executioner actually equals to about 840*50% = 420 -armor under special attacks & SnD.
So,I think RogueDPS_2_3_0_3 can be improved on Executioner.
I'd sent a message to Ellos,but he told me taht he would no longer work on the Spreadsheet.
I want to konw whether the tests of Executioner has been done before and my results are exact.
p.s. English is not my mother tongue,please forgive me if I make any solecism.
Avina, the thesis "SND And other attacks outside +haste lowers the chance to proc procs on white attacks to maintain PPM" seems generally accepted nowadays.
I'm using RogueDPS_2_3_0_3 recently and I find that "Executioner" is regarded as 210 -armor in the "Wep_ Enchants" page.We know that special attacks & SnD can increase the frequency of enchants like Executioner and Mongoose.To find out whether that is calculated I did a test:
-set MH Enchant as "none" in Gear _ Buffs page
-set Chest as "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass"
-reduce the -armor value of "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass" from 210 to 0
-save DPS
-set MH Enchant as Executioner ,get a increased DPS = A.
-backspace and icrease the -armor value of "Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass" from 0 to 210,get another increased DPS = B.
A=B,so Executioner is regarded as a fixed value of 210 -armor instead of a changeful value affected by special attacks & SnD.
I did other tests in WoW:
In 62.85 minutes of only-MH-wep auto attack,I got 77 times of Executioner effect.
PPM = 77/62.85 ≈ 1.2,while PPM of Executioner used in the Spreadsheet is 1.0 .
My MH-wep speed is 2.7 in the test ,so the rate is 1.2/(60/2.7)= 5.4% .
Considering SnD & special attacks(use hemo here,1 hit/3.6s):
Actual PPM = 1.2*1.3 + 60/3.6*5.4% = 2.46 .
In 1 min you will have Executioner effect for 2.46*15 = 37s(61.5%),this number is a liitle fat because Executioner will not stack.
In another test( dual wield,hemo,SnD) , Executioner effect lasted for 1655s in 52.7min(52.4%) Executioner actually equals to about 840*50% = 420 -armor under special attacks & SnD.
So,I think RogueDPS_2_3_0_3 can be improved on Executioner.
I'd sent a message to Ellos,but he told me taht he would no longer work on the Spreadsheet.
I want to konw whether the tests of Executioner has been done before and my results are exact.
p.s. English is not my mother tongue,please forgive me if I make any solecism.
It's very possible that the value for Executioner is understated in this spreadsheet. I believe the value assigned to the proc was determined before much or any testing was accomplished. The numbers you mention do seem more in line with testing accomplished by other individuals, but there is still the problem that no one ever nailed down the Mongoose enchant proc rate, so a direct comparison is still difficult. According to what seems to be a majority in the Executioner testing thread, it it believed that at a certain gear level (T5ish from what I gathered), Executioner has become the enchant of choice for MH, while you would retain Mongoose for OH.
People really ought to stop reading tiny snippets of threads and "thinking" they have learned something cold.
There is no proof that Mongoose has been bested by Exectioner on either hand. Or the other way around for that matter.
Hit is not always better than hit/agility. Nor is hit/agility always better than hit.
Windfury is not always better than Grace of Air/instant Poison. Instant Poison/Grace of Air is not always better than Windfury.
With regards to Windfury or Grace of Air. There was conclusive testing, and gear levels determine which is most effective. If I remember correctly, it did not take very much gear, at all, for windfury to be better no matter how you set up. Im sure the details were in this thread, including the methodology used in testing.
I recently started getting serious about my classes' DPS, discovering ways to increase it, and pondering other possibilities. I was searching through these forums for some sort of insight that I may get on my question but didn't see it, so I'll ask: I've been starting to think that slow off-hands might be(for a combat rogue) more beneficial for DPS. Upon realizing this, I questioned the purpose of having fast off-handers. To further illustrate my point I'll start off with some simple math. Off Hand weapon A has 1.5 weapon speed. Off-hand weapon B has 2.5 weapon speed. Popping slice and dice with either of these weapons means several things. Compare 30% of 1.5 to 30% of 2.5. Naturally the OH with slower speed also has more weapon damage. So if my haste abilities/enchants decrease the speed of slower weapons more than quicker weapons, isn't it more wise to invest in slower OHs?
I recently started getting serious about my classes' DPS, discovering ways to increase it, and pondering other possibilities. I was searching through these forums for some sort of insight that I may get on my question but didn't see it, so I'll ask: I've been starting to think that slow off-hands might be(for a combat rogue) more beneficial for DPS. Upon realizing this, I questioned the purpose of having fast off-handers. To further illustrate my point I'll start off with some simple math. Off Hand weapon A has 1.5 weapon speed. Off-hand weapon B has 2.5 weapon speed. Popping slice and dice with either of these weapons means several things. Compare 30% of 1.5 to 30% of 2.5. Naturally the OH with slower speed also has more weapon damage. So if my haste abilities/enchants decrease the speed of slower weapons more than quicker weapons, isn't it more wise to invest in slower OHs?
I recently started getting serious about my classes' DPS, discovering ways to increase it, and pondering other possibilities. I was searching through these forums for some sort of insight that I may get on my question but didn't see it, so I'll ask: I've been starting to think that slow off-hands might be(for a combat rogue) more beneficial for DPS. Upon realizing this, I questioned the purpose of having fast off-handers. To further illustrate my point I'll start off with some simple math. Off Hand weapon A has 1.5 weapon speed. Off-hand weapon B has 2.5 weapon speed. Popping slice and dice with either of these weapons means several things. Compare 30% of 1.5 to 30% of 2.5. Naturally the OH with slower speed also has more weapon damage. So if my haste abilities/enchants decrease the speed of slower weapons more than quicker weapons, isn't it more wise to invest in slower OHs?
The amount of speed reduced in terms of seconds dosent matter - think of haste as increasing the amount of attacks within a certain timeframe and youll find that a 30% speed increase to a 1.5 speed weapon and a 30% speed increase to a 2.5 speed weapon results in both weapons having 30% more attacks. There are other ways of showing this too, such as seeing haste effects as a flat dps increase. Dps is tied to the weapon speed and the weapons damage, so lets say we have a weapon with 1.0 speed and 100 damage and another weapon with 2.0 speed and 200 damage. Both weapons have 100 dps as you can see.
If we increase the speed of both weapons by half then we have a 0.5 speed weapon doing 100 damage and a 1.0 speed weapon doing 200 damage - both weapons will now do 200 dps, the same increase, therefore a slower weapon does not benefit more from haste effects despite the understandable misconception that it is having more of its speed lowered.
The reason then that faster weapons are preferred is because raidind introduces 2 factors - poison procs and combat potency. Both of these have a % chance to proc on each attack, so a faster weapon will provide more chances of a proc occuring and therefore more procs. Based on this, fast weapons are preferred for combat rogues (and any raiding rogue really because of poisons) because they provide extra benefits to dps whereas a slow weapon provides none.
I've been lurking here for some time but I'm just now taking an interest in the spreadsheet and the Rogue 101 thread.
I saw that it's best to keep the 2piece/T4 until you have 4piece T5. So I've decided to go back and equip my Netherblade Shoulders. (I still have my Netherblade leggings).
I had 2 16AP gems in the shoulders. So I set the spreadsheet to my current gear with the Netherblade shoulders and the gems. Then according to the Rogue 101 thread it said to stay away from the gems I have. So I tried out gem combinations of [8hit & 8hit] then [8hit & 4hit/4agi] then [4hit/4agi & 4hit/4agi].
In each of those cases the 2 16AP gems had more DPS. Is this a case of the Rogue 101 being mistaken due to my other gear? Or is the spreadsheet possibly wrong with DPS output?
11/30/07, 5:54 PM
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