[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet - Page 53

Devil Warrior · 12/03/07, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Khory

I've been lurking here for some time but I'm just now taking an interest in the spreadsheet and the Rogue 101 thread.

I saw that it's best to keep the 2piece/T4 until you have 4piece T5. So I've decided to go back and equip my Netherblade Shoulders. (I still have my Netherblade leggings).

I had 2 16AP gems in the shoulders. So I set the spreadsheet to my current gear with the Netherblade shoulders and the gems. Then according to the Rogue 101 thread it said to stay away from the gems I have. So I tried out gem combinations of [8hit & 8hit] then [8hit & 4hit/4agi] then [4hit/4agi & 4hit/4agi].

In each of those cases the 2 16AP gems had more DPS. Is this a case of the Rogue 101 being mistaken due to my other gear? Or is the spreadsheet possibly wrong with DPS output?

Could be an issue of you looking at unbuffed DPS instead of buffed DPS. AP is unaffected by kings, whereas agility is affected by kings.

Khory · 12/03/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Devil Warrior

Could be an issue of you looking at unbuffed DPS instead of buffed DPS. AP is unaffected by kings, whereas agility is affected by kings.

So all things being equal...I turned off all my raid buffs except kings.

Set my gear to what it currently is with Netherblade shoulders and 2 16AP gems.
Total buffed DPS is 719.15

8hit/8hit gems:
Total buffed DPS is 717.67

8hit/4hit 4agi
718.01

4hit 4agi/4hit 4agi
718.34

8agi/8agi
719.01

8agi/4hit 4agi
718.67

So if I'm doing this right (and I will admit I could be messing something up somewhere) I will lose some DPS changing out those gems regardless. I would lose less DPS putting 8agi/8agi in there and I would get to keep my 2piece T4 bonus.

• Vulajin · 12/03/07, 6:09 PM

Turning buffs off is the wrong approach. The Roguecraft thread is devoted to providing input for raiding rogues in raiding situations. Hence, you should be turning on any buffs which you expect to receive in a raid situation. Just by way of example, I usually expect to receive Windfury Totem, Strength of Earth Totem, Unleashed Rage, 5/5 Imp Battle Shout, Leader of the Pack, Mangle, 0/5 Gift of the Wild, Blessing of Kings, and 5/5 Imp Blessing of Might. Your mileage may vary.

Khory · 12/03/07, 9:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Turning buffs off is the wrong approach. The Roguecraft thread is devoted to providing input for raiding rogues in raiding situations. Hence, you should be turning on any buffs which you expect to receive in a raid situation. Just by way of example, I usually expect to receive Windfury Totem, Strength of Earth Totem, Unleashed Rage, 5/5 Imp Battle Shout, Leader of the Pack, Mangle, 0/5 Gift of the Wild, Blessing of Kings, and 5/5 Imp Blessing of Might. Your mileage may vary.

True, but if I want to gauge the effectiveness of certain gems in a raiding situation and Kings is the only buff that is dependent on my gear, then it doesn't matter about the other buffs. I can turn everything else off and still get good information on which gems are better for raiding.

But I went ahead and turned on the ones I commonly get. And still I can't find a situation where the 16AP gems are inferior to the other gems according to the spreadsheet.

avina · 12/03/07, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

Avina, the thesis "SND And other attacks outside +haste lowers the chance to proc procs on white attacks to maintain PPM" seems generally accepted nowadays.

so you mean that with SnD,Executioner PPM is still 1.2 but my 2.7 speed wep proc rate is reduced to 5.4%/1.3 = 4.15%
thus, actual PPM = 1.2+4.15%*60/3.6 = 1.9 , in 1 min I'll have Executioner buff for 1.9*15 = 28.5s (47.5%)
But,in my test the number is 52.4% .Suppose every proc is full 15s ,PPM = 60*52.4%/15 = 2.1,yet I noticed that some durations were far more than 15s .It means that some procs are partly wasted ,actual PPM is far more than 2.1.
Results according to your thesis dose not accord with results I got in tests.

From CombatLog:
11/30 18:50:02.656 get Executioner effect.
...
...
11/30 18:50:39.281 Executioner effect disappears.

In 36.4s at least 3 Executioner came up, 45- 36.4 = 8.6s was wasted.

In one of the SnD-specail attacks tests, I counted carefully and even got 45 effects in 14.6 min ,PPM = 3.1 ...

Well, I just want to say that Executioner is undervalued in RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.

path411 · 12/04/07, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Khory

True, but if I want to gauge the effectiveness of certain gems in a raiding situation and Kings is the only buff that is dependent on my gear, then it doesn't matter about the other buffs. I can turn everything else off and still get good information on which gems are better for raiding.

But I went ahead and turned on the ones I commonly get. And still I can't find a situation where the 16AP gems are inferior to the other gems according to the spreadsheet.

Almost every raid buff is gear dependant.
ie.
WF makes hit better.
Leader of the Pack and mangle will make your AP/agi better.

Khory · 12/04/07, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by path411

Almost every raid buff is gear dependant.
ie.
WF makes hit better.
Leader of the Pack and mangle will make your AP/agi better.

I think I did a poor job explaining that post.

If I have 10 agility then Kings will scale that to a total of 12 agility.

Leader of the Pack increases my total crit chance by 5%.

LotP is always, only going to give me 5%crit, no matter what gear I have will change that.

I think I'm doing a poor job explaining this post also.

My gear directly affects the boost I get from Kings. LotP is just added to what i already have.

Feist-Mok · 12/04/07, 2:09 AM

Originally Posted by Khory

I think I did a poor job explaining that post.

If I have 10 agility then Kings will scale that to a total of 12 agility.

Leader of the Pack increases my total crit chance by 5%.

LotP is always, only going to give me 5%crit, no matter what gear I have will change that.

I think I'm doing a poor job explaining this post also.

My gear directly affects the boost I get from Kings. LotP is just added to what i already have.

More crit delivers more damage relative to how much AP you have.

If you have 1000 AP 5% crit will give you less extra DPS than if you have 1500 or 2000 AP.

Stats have synergies. None exist in a vaccuum. While Kings provides the most obvious and direct corelation here it's benefit improves with your gear, the only buff I can think of that doesn't scale to gear is going to be poisons, which only scale with haste/weaponspeed, and stuff like Light/Salv, since any spreadsheet scenario is going to assume you 1) won't die, and 2) won't pull aggro.

Mideci · 12/04/07, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

With regards to Windfury or Grace of Air. There was conclusive testing, and gear levels determine which is most effective. If I remember correctly, it did not take very much gear, at all, for windfury to be better no matter how you set up. Im sure the details were in this thread, including the methodology used in testing.

First of all, I am aware of what's in this thread and other rogue threads here. It's Aldriana, I believe, who backs the "windfury is better than IP/GoA but not by a lot" theory. If it's not him, forgive me Ald

Second of all, perhaps your raid has 4 rogues and a shaman or some combination of rogues and dps warriors and a shaman alone in a group. Mine doesn't. Hunters benefit from GoA but not WF. When looking at the dps of the raid, Windfury can easily be an inferior choice than Grace of Air. Does that mean we don't usually have WF? No, it doesn't. We most often do. When we don't, we have Grace of Air.

koaschten · 12/04/07, 9:05 AM

You are looking for this Mideci:

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

III. Windfury vs GoA in a raid group?
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:

* A DPS warrior is in your group
* A warrior who is tanking is in your group
* A warrior is in your group
* If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group

Grace of Air should be considered for use only if the above are false, and under these conditions:

* A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty)
* A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components
* Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group

mih · 12/04/07, 3:14 PM

2.3.0.3b (mih)
changed
Human racial 5 expertise (mace/sword)
Execitioner (MH 50% uptime/OH 25% uptime)
Warp-Spring Coil (35% uptime)
Band of the Eternal Champion (10% uptime)

added
Spinesever (2.3 nerf)

fixed
The Savage's Choker (haste)
Hemo (110% dmg)

Radmsc · 12/04/07, 5:25 PM

The new Hemo with (only) 110% damage is in the new version. But is the debuff on the mob also changed in it?

songster · 12/04/07, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Radmsc

The new Hemo with (only) 110% damage is in the new version. But is the debuff on the mob also changed in it?

No, because it has not yet been implemented on any server including the PTR.

NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE NEW VERSION OF HEMO IS OR DOES.

Got it? Now everyone can just shut up about Hemo until we have some data.

Khory · 12/04/07, 7:56 PM

Does anyone use the spreadsheet with OS X?

I had been doing my gear choices at home on my iMac and according to the spreadsheet the 16AP gems were better. I emailed the sheet to myself and opened it at work and it's showing that the 8hit gems are better.

I saved it and emailed it to myself again and on the iMac in Excel 04, it's once again showing that the 16AP gems are better.

Anyone else seen a difference between the OSX version of Excel and the Windows?

Zurgat · 12/05/07, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by mih

2.3.0.3b (mih)
added
Spinesever (2.3 nerf)

Hemo (110% dmg)

Spinesever : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34622

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3...neseverzy7.jpg
Spinesever (2.3.2 PTR): ilvl 100
+11 Agility
+12 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Increases attack power by 20.

ItemValue = [(11*1)^1,5 + (12*0,667)^1,5 + (10*1)^1,5 + (20*0,5)^1,5)] ^ 0,667 = 24,7
ItemSlotValue = 33,6 * 3,33 = 82,2
ilvl = 111,8 * 1,3 + 1,3 = 108

Spinesever v. Marksman's Bow
+12 Stam
-1 Agi
-1 Hit Rating
-2 AP

--

How much did you set the new hemo debuff to?

koaschten · 12/05/07, 4:45 AM

Zurgat, it was said in several threads already that they only announced the % weapon damage change. A new build didn't hit the PTR yet. NOONE knows the new debuff value.

Zurgat · 12/05/07, 4:54 AM

Originally Posted by koaschten

Zurgat, it was said in several threads already that they only announced the % weapon damage change. A new build didn't hit the PTR yet. NOONE knows the new debuff value.

That's exactly why i was wondering.
If you put the hemo modifier in the speadsheet to 110% without upping the debuff, you'll simply create a much lower output which may lead to confusion.

Might it not be better to leave it on 125% until the new debuff value is also known ?

koaschten · 12/05/07, 6:11 AM

The debuff value is only of interest if you count in your raid dps contribution. Sadly i can't find the post were someone calculated the debuff value to which Blizzard would have to bump it to to keep the dps contribution of a hemo rogue equivalent to the current version. I think it was in the ballpark of 48.

benybenson · 12/05/07, 7:13 AM

There is still a bug in Tsunami uptime calc in 2.3.0.3b, the duration is 10s not 15s

you have to change this lines too fix it :

UNBUFFED DPS (Q46)

=WENN(ODER(trinket1="Tsunami Talisman";trinket2="Tsunami Talisman");15/(10/(Q29)+40);0)

fixed:

=WENN(ODER(trinket1="Tsunami Talisman";trinket2="Tsunami Talisman");10/(10/(Q29)+40);0)

BUFFED DPS (Q49)

 
=(15/(10/('Unbuffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C29

fixed:

=(10/(10/('Unbuffed DPS'!Q29)+40))*300*deadliness*'DPS Calc'!C29

Doink · 12/05/07, 7:45 AM

The 5 expertise racial that humans benefit from when using maces or swords is 5 points of expertise,
not expertise rating. This cell needs to be updated to reflect this:

Races (I4)

=IF(OR(mhtype="sword",mhtype="mace"),5,0)

Fixed:

=IF(OR(mhtype="sword",mhtype="mace"),5*skillrate,0)

royaljester · 12/05/07, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Doink

The 5 expertise racial that humans benefit from when using maces or swords is 5 points of expertise,
not expertise rating. This cell needs to be updated to reflect this:

Races (I4)

=IF(OR(mhtype="sword",mhtype="mace"),5,0)

Fixed:

=IF(OR(mhtype="sword",mhtype="mace"),5*skillrate,0)

So handy Vinq

Anyone know if, on at least the PTR, the bug where holding a sword AND mace gave you 10 expertise instead of 5 for the racial? My PTR won't load for some reason, so I can't check it out.

Dontmindme · 12/05/07, 6:34 PM

Not to mention that the Backstab calculations are still wrong, Unbuffed is adding 1.65 times weapon damage instead of 1.5 and for buffed Backstab, the weapon damage is the correct 1.5 but the AP calculation is multiplied by 1.65. This isn't mentioning that the spreadsheet is still calculating Opportunity/Aggression and Surprise Attacks as multiplicative instead of additive as its supposed to be.

Dontmindme · 12/05/07, 10:20 PM

I have been updating my sheet with changes, so if you want I've added a changelog and incorporated the changes above as well as most of 2.3.0.3b. Named it 2.3.0.3c

(See link in posts below)

2.3.0.3c dmm
changed
Armor values to 7700 for bosses and 6800 for 70's reflecting the discoveries in the Boss Armor Value thread
Hemo (125%) at least until I see it change on the PTR

added
Added Heavy Knothide Armor Kit

removed
Removed Libram of Constitution
Remove Libram of Voracity (Stamina)

fixed
Fixed backstab calculations
Updated the Item Bonus sheet to reflect missing socket bonuses to fix problem with the item compare sheet
Removed debuff damage from Hemo attacks
Made Surprise Attacks/Opportunity/Aggression additive
Gladiator's Leather Helm stats
Tuskbreaker set to Zul Aman
Mama's Insurance stats
Shuriken of Negation stats
Human Expertise fix
Tsunami Talisman set to 10 seconds

silentogre · 12/05/07, 10:35 PM

That number we've all been waiting for is 42.

Hemo rank 4 - still 10 charges and +42 dmg

Edit: added image

Dontmindme · 12/05/07, 10:52 PM

New update with Hemo 110% and 10 charges of 42 damage...

RogueDPS_2_3_2_1.xls