There's a bug with this version of the spreadsheet which puts the resulting DPS as : "N/A"
It occurs as soon as i select +4 stats on my rings.
The +2 damage enchant gives no problems.
The Hemo change isn't as completely bad as i expected, however it's still quite disappointing to see the results.
Personal dps down by about 14.
Raid dps(hemo buff included) down by about 1 dps.
I put up a post with some more details in the link below as well.
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/06/07 at 4:44 AM.
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The Hemo change isn't as completely bad as i expected, however it's still quite disappointing to see the results.
Personal dps down by about 14.
Raid dps(hemo buff included) down by about 1 dps.
Strange, I noticed a dps-drop of 94 from Spreadsheet-Version 2.3.0.3 to Version 2.3.2.1 (already excluded the 12dps drop from the Tsunami-Talisman fix).
Strange, I noticed a dps-drop of 94 from Spreadsheet-Version 2.3.0.3 to Version 2.3.2.1 (already excluded the 12dps drop from the Tsunami-Talisman fix).
Sorry, but you DID notice Hemo got changed from 125% to 110% in that sheet as its 2.3.2.1 aka first release for 2.3.2 patch? And looking at your armory you are hemo spec'd... *whistles*
Sorry, but you DID notice Hemo got changed from 125% to 110% in that sheet as its 2.3.2.1 aka first release for 2.3.2 patch? And looking at your armory you are hemo spec'd... *whistles*
Honey I was referring to Zurgat's post that he noticed only an drop in personal dps of 14 dps
So I was very astonished that with quite similar spec and equipment I would see a drop of 80dps more when comparing dps-results with old and new sheet-version.
So YES I did notice the change and that's what my post was all about
Strange, did you copy paste all your talents and gear exactly as it was in the previous spreadsheet?
I used "RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.xls" to compare the new "RogueDPS_2_3_2_1.xls".
The armor rating of the bosses did get changed from 70xx to 7700, but still... that wouldnt explain a whole 94 drop in dps.
Hmmm.. it might actually be a nice idea (for testing purpose) to have a checkbox in the talents tab that we could check or uncheck to this purpose.
Something like : "Use 2.3.0 hemo values"
This might solve any confusion with old spreadsheets, and give us a clean look at how much hemo has actually changed in the 2.3.2 patch.
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Strange, did you copy paste all your talents and gear exactly as it was in the previous spreadsheet?
I used "RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.xls" to compare the new "RogueDPS_2_3_2_1.xls".
The armor rating of the bosses did get changed from 70xx to 7700, but still... that wouldnt explain a whole 94 drop in dps.
I used the same sheets as you did and so even the armor-changes would be the same for both of us.
I did an import of my whole gear and spec from 2_3_0_3 to 2_3_2_1 and cross-checked some buffs and the talent-build to make sure the import worked, but I'll rebuild my whole sheet in 2_3_2_1 just to make sure there were no import-errors.
Hmmm.. it might actually be a nice idea (for testing purpose) to have a checkbox in the talents tab that we could check or uncheck to this purpose.
Something like : "Use 2.3.0 hemo values"
This might solve any confusion with old spreadsheets, and give us a clean look at how much hemo has actually changed in the 2.3.2 patch.
Very nice idea indeed, but probably a hell of a job to do just for this single question to be answered.
There's been too many changes since 2_3_0_3 to make direct comparisons, however if I look at Hemo DPS in the new sheet and do the math I loose a bit over 40 personal dps. This puts 11/28/22 120 personal dps behind combat which is only barely made up by the new debuff under perfect conditions. If this is correct I don't see any reason to bring even one hemo rogue to a raid.
On the current hemo topic, it should also be noted that there really isn't a way to gage the current hemo raid dps contribution as it is broken to be taken down by spells without any benifit. Where the new 110% w/ 42 damage debuff is a bit less in personal dps the fix to hemo at the same time should be a buff to current raid dps. I would love to see some testing on this on the PTR.
As for the spreadsheet... a couple things I have noticed that I want to ask about. It seems that as a combat spec (other then daggers) no opener is taken into account. Here's how I came to that conclusion. If a mob can be ruptured it should be assumed you are opening with garrote, however I see no difference in dps when doing 0/5 opportunity compared to 5/5 opportunity. There should be a small dps increase.
Where I understand the main purpose is to look at sustained dps, I think a check box for something like "allow opener" should be added. This could be further implemented to work the use of vanish and prep in as well, as each should give an opportunity for another application of garrote. Not to mention prep should be able to be used on each boss fight thus doubling the benifit of things like CB or AR/BF if they are taken.
Considering this I think another check box should be added for something like "10 minute boss fight." This would allow for calculations to be made for the added benifit of vanish and prep that currently is non-existent in the spreadsheet.
The reason being is I wanted to see how a build like 0/39/22 would compare to 19/42/0 and 11/27/23, but found that there was no way to get a good grasp on this with the current spreadsheet. I know I can respec, test, and then compare to my current output... but I think these changes would contribute enough to warrant the request for these features.
Buffed, hit is worth 0.15 AEP???? And agi is worth more than hit? I was under the impression that hit rating was the #1 stat for rogues. At the moment I raid with 277 hit unbuffed. I ask because another rogue in the guild has about 40 less hit but about 200 more AP and pulls ahead on the DPS by about 1% thru long fights, am I nerfing my own DPS by socketing mostly hit?
I know that it's been established that Shadowstep builds are not the highest raid dps spec by any means, but how much does the addition of a combo point bring them up? The 2_3_2_1 spreadsheet doesn't seem to take it into account (unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be). A 10-energy combo point every 30 seconds, in addition to the extra damage, seems like a pretty good deal.
Yes, I'm aware that the Hemo nerf and lack of pertinent combat talents will make this build suck. But it looks like so much fun.
For clarification on my formula for SS it's SS damage + SS crit damage considering crit chance then mitigated by armor. The individual values are as follows for this formula:
24.83% armor mitigation ( 75.17% damage post mitigation )
961.34 SS avg damage
579.53 SS avg crit damage per swing
Hum, yup for me SS is better maxed out then garrote. Let's see how things fair when garrote is all talented out (minus lolstep)
Garrote talented average:
( 810 + ( 2781 * 0.18 ) ) * 1.2 = 1572.70
1572.70 / 30 = 52.42 damage per energy
30 / 1.75 = 17.14 energy per combo point
So, if I take 5/5 Opportunity, Initiative 3/3, and 2/2 DD Garrote becomes significantly better... otherwise SS is a better choice for an opener. Actually just taking 5/5 Opportunity makes Garrote come out better then SS, not by much ends up being 31.50 damage per energy.
Last edited by Anked : 12/06/07 at 2:46 PM.
Reason: LOL, forgot to add weapon damage to ss!
Comparing my dps from the two most recent versions (same combat spec and gear) I notice a loss of about 70dps buffed. I couldn't figure out why until I noticed the 'AC amount' value was changed in cell Q-41 of the DPS sheets. Just curious if there was a reason for this change.
Thanks for the numbers of garrote versus SS. I was hoping someone would do the calculations after that statement was made. One issue, if you're considering the mob to be fully sundered, shouldn't you also consider Mangle on the mob? I would think that would push garrote a bit further ahead.
MIH, is there some reason you feel it unnecessary to fix the clearly wrong formula for backstab? I just posted a sheet with that correction and more. All very reasonable corrections, and yet you decide to post your own, ignoring fixes that have been mentioned for nearly a month. I altered Armor to make the best established knowledge of the EJ community. I fixed a number of incorrect item stats. I fixed Backstab with the clearly screwed up formulas and fixed the issue with some of the additive talents. Fixed Hemo where it properly does not gain its own benefit. (Test this yourself, its simple, equip a low-range weapon, open up with Hemo, attack again with Hemo and you will see that the Hemo attack does not benefit from the Hemo debuff). I fixed the item bonus sheet so that the Item Compare sheet will work with many items its not currently working with...yet you seem to think it prudent to ignore all this and post a less accurate sheet. What gives?
Comparing my dps from the two most recent versions (same combat spec and gear) I notice a loss of about 70dps buffed. I couldn't figure out why until I noticed the 'AC amount' value was changed in cell Q-41 of the DPS sheets. Just curious if there was a reason for this change.
The reason I made this change in my version of the sheet was because it was more accurate. If you refer to research on these forums, you will see that almost all bosses have armor of either 6200 or 7700. The sheet was just declaring Armor to be a base 40% reduction or about 7038 or so Armor. So, for many bosses 7700 will be much more accurate, although for some you'd want the base value to be 6200. [RAID] Boss armor values
Now, I've been thinking about adding a box so the user can set the Armor to the boss you are interested in based on research in that thread. I think it would be nice to have the sheet calculate values for the specific boss you are interested in (i.e. Rupturable? Poisonable? How much Armor?) so one could compare their build to the boss they are stuck on in progression and even so one could optimize their talents to down that one troublesome boss.
Now, I know that no one has officially decided to take charge of maintaining the sheet, but given that I've been modifying my own sheet, I'd be willing to maintain it for a little while, while at the same time making the calculations more accurate and possibly adding a new feature here or there.
Thanks for the numbers of garrote versus SS. I was hoping someone would do the calculations after that statement was made. One issue, if you're considering the mob to be fully sundered, shouldn't you also consider Mangle on the mob? I would think that would push garrote a bit further ahead.
Yeah, good point. If the mob is mangles your garrote just gained 30% damage pushing it 34.08 damage per energy. That's a big jump in damage. I won't bother with a talented garrote, as it's already better then SS w/o mangle.
So, good rule of thumb... if the boss is mangled garrote away! If not open with a ss.
MIH, is there some reason you feel it unnecessary to fix the clearly wrong formula for backstab? I just posted a sheet with that correction and more. All very reasonable corrections, and yet you decide to post your own, ignoring fixes that have been mentioned for nearly a month.
I altered Armor to make the best established knowledge of the EJ community.
I fixed a number of incorrect item stats.
I fixed Backstab with the clearly screwed up formulas and fixed the issue with some of the additive talents.
Fixed Hemo where it properly does not gain its own benefit. (Test this yourself, its simple, equip a low-range weapon, open up with Hemo, attack again with Hemo and you will see that the Hemo attack does not benefit from the Hemo debuff).
I fixed the item bonus sheet so that the Item Compare sheet will work with many items its not currently working with...yet you seem to think it prudent to ignore all this and post a less accurate sheet. What gives?
I'm curious about this as well, it seems most logical to improve the sheet based on the research done so far.
If i had to guess i'd say MiH probably wants to do some verification on the data before implementing it into the next version, but didn't have all the time he needed to do so. so we'd see the improvements implemented today or tomorrow. Or as blizzard likes to say "soon(tm)"
Still weird though.
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Buffed, hit is worth 0.15 AEP???? And agi is worth more than hit? I was under the impression that hit rating was the #1 stat for rogues. At the moment I raid with 277 hit unbuffed. I ask because another rogue in the guild has about 40 less hit but about 200 more AP and pulls ahead on the DPS by about 1% thru long fights, am I nerfing my own DPS by socketing mostly hit?
Well, Im not sure on the aep calculations, but, Id trade 40 hit for 200 ap pretty easily. In fact, I think Id trade 50-60 hit for 200 ap. It definitely is not a gem socketing issue here, 200 ap is worth mare than 40 hit.
Buffed, hit is worth 0.15 AEP???? And agi is worth more than hit? I was under the impression that hit rating was the #1 stat for rogues. At the moment I raid with 277 hit unbuffed. I ask because another rogue in the guild has about 40 less hit but about 200 more AP and pulls ahead on the DPS by about 1% thru long fights, am I nerfing my own DPS by socketing mostly hit?
200 AP > 40 Hit, of that there can be no doubt.
As for the weird number on your buffed Hit AEP, the only reason I can think of is that your buffed Hit Rating is just below the Hit cap, so that last point of Hit barely makes any difference. But the numbers you give don't add up. Even with all the Hit buffs, and 277 unbuffed Hit, you'd effectively have 344 Hit rating.
MIH, is there some reason you feel it unnecessary to fix the clearly wrong formula for backstab? I just posted a sheet with that correction and more. All very reasonable corrections, and yet you decide to post your own, ignoring fixes that have been mentioned for nearly a month. I altered Armor to make the best established knowledge of the EJ community. I fixed a number of incorrect item stats. I fixed Backstab with the clearly screwed up formulas and fixed the issue with some of the additive talents. Fixed Hemo where it properly does not gain its own benefit. (Test this yourself, its simple, equip a low-range weapon, open up with Hemo, attack again with Hemo and you will see that the Hemo attack does not benefit from the Hemo debuff). I fixed the item bonus sheet so that the Item Compare sheet will work with many items its not currently working with...yet you seem to think it prudent to ignore all this and post a less accurate sheet. What gives?
i only read "New update with Hemo 110% and 10 charges of 42 damage..." and don't check any changelog. big sorry
ur version is available @ http://rogue.raidcal.com/
Just wondering, how do you activate the expose weakness buff on the spreadsheet? I have always left it alone since I didn't see where to enter any info without causing errors possibly.
12/06/07, 4:08 AM
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