I do not know if this is a current issue, but in 2.3.0.2 there is no hit cap.
In other words, you can stack hit into the 400s and still have the sheet tell you its worth more than agility.
Well, my first thought is that with the removal of weapon skill, it takes 442 hit rating to cap right now as a boss has a 28% miss rate (28 * 10 * 82 / 52) = 441.54 hit rating or 363 hit rating with 5 ranks Precision (23 * 10 * 82 / 52) = 362.69 hit rating.
I believe I corrected the Seal Fate issue in the cycle sheets - there was no allowing for the extra combo point generation on the crits and so it calculated the cycle with the same number of instant attacks. The correction seems to be working in-line with my experience of the 31/0/30 build so while it may not be a 100% fix it's seems to be pretty much there. The proposed correction is:
On the Unbuffed Cycles sheet replace the formula in cell I23 with the following:
While this correction uses the probability of the proc - and some people suggested that simulation could be better - its probably good enough for a sheet that models an unending Tank and Spank.
Hum, yup for me SS is better maxed out then garrote.
So, if I take 5/5 Opportunity, Initiative 3/3, and 2/2 DD Garrote becomes significantly better... otherwise SS is a better choice for an opener. Actually just taking 5/5 Opportunity makes Garrote come out better then SS, not by much ends up being 31.50 damage per energy.
Considering conditions are so close for opening with SS and garrote would it be feasible to add a "user opener" check box to the spread sheet? It could take into account if the mob is bleedable as well as figure the best opener for your build spec. Chances are if you're speced into the sub tree at all or if you have a cat druid in the group/raid garrote is going to be a better opener then anything else.
Also, for things like prep and shadowstep it would be nice to have a "calculate boss fight length" section where you could choose from a drop down how long the fight would be. Choices like "Burst use all CD <5 min," "Boss 10 min," and "Everything else >10 min." A setting like this would allow you to take into account abilities that have CDs and better show how they effect a fight. Not to mention take into account abilities that lower CD timers.
Thank you for the above proposed Seal Fate fix. I'll add that to the next version unless someone can show good reason why not. It's got to be more accurate than the way the sheet is currently portraying it.
The idea of modeling openers is on my to do list. Borrowing terminology from Aldriana, I've got it in my "Nice to Have" category. If I find the time, I'll try to get that in, but there are a number of things I have higher on the list. When I get around to modeling openers, it will probably be as 1 opener per available Vanish. So untalented, 1 Opener per 5 minutes; talented 1 opener per 3.5 minutes; with prep + 1 opener every 10 minutes. Now, if you really look at the above proposed modeling, it should be pretty clear, that even with a good increase in damage from the opener, with minutes before you can it again, the increase in DPS will be fairly negligible. Still, as a class we try to eek out every bit of DPS we can, and as such, it's probably worth modeling at some point.
As to fights of variable length, I believe that is outside the real scope of this spreadsheet. There are burst combat simulators I've seen that are more suited to that sort of task.
To give people an idea on things I have higher on the list: Current efforts:
1) Adapt Armory Import code to the sheet, so that talents and equipment can be pulled directly from Wow Armory (or from a saved copy of one's character and talent sheets).
2) Go over the existing Import/Export macros to make sure those are still working correctly, especially given the reports of Import problems.
3) Clean up some of the item sheets including reorganizing some of the data structures. This includes the addition of Item IDs (necessary for the Armory Import). Special attention paid to static cell references vs. open cell references so that it's less likely things break if new items are added or additional items or stats inserted.
4) Keeping up with patch changes, new items and fixes posted to this list.
5) Fix simple issues found as I do the above. (Incorrect item stats; old broken references and the like)
Next phase:
6) Streamline often used formulas (referencing them from a single location).
7) Fact check formulas/item stats.
8) Readdress proc modeling effects.
9) Readdress cycle modeling especially for non-standard builds like Mutilate/Deep Subtlety.
Later aka "Nice to Have":
10) Sort the UI to be more user friendly.
11) Allow options for Openers / Bleedable / Poisonable, etc
12) Drop-down menu for specific bosses auto-setting above?
Given I still play the game and raid (besides being employed full-time), I'm doing what I can as I find the time. Of course, if anyone wants to model/fix anything else and has the time to do it, they can feel free. I feel this is a community project. As with all the contributers to this sheet past and present, its a lot of work, but we wouldn't do it, if it didn't give results.
Given I still play the game and raid (besides being employed full-time), I'm doing what I can as I find the time. Of course, if anyone wants to model/fix anything else and has the time to do it, they can feel free. I feel this is a community project. As with all the contributers to this sheet past and present, its a lot of work, but we wouldn't do it, if it didn't give results.
Thank you Don for taking time to work on this! I can appreciate time being precious, and I would be happy to look for ways I can contribute I'm always amazed we even have something like this, and at the same time very thankful we do!
is it possible that there is a bug with Fearie Fire in the Boss debuffs part in sheet Gear_Buffs?
I'm wondering that there is always (if improved oder not) an armor reduction of 610 and if it is on Rank 3? (Fearie Fire has 5) you will get 47 Hit Rating in addition.
Is this right?
At thottbot the skill has 5 Ranks each increasing die armor red. by some amount starting at 175 (Rank 1)to 610 (Rank 5) and no Hit Rating.
The 47 hit rating is from improved faerie fire, which is generally a Moonkin spec. Just remove the talent points from the drop down and it will only take into account the armor reduction.
I know hit isnt the end all stat for raiding rogues, but how little is too little? My guild is progressing through ZA. We have gruul on farm and will be doing more mag, SSC and TK when the holidays are over and we have more people for 25mans. I used to be at 299 hit rating before the patch made the cap 363. I obtained some new gear that were upgrades but had less or no hit rating on them. For example, I finally got rid of my socrethars belt for the blade angels money belt. It's also telling me the tricksy trickter fingers and shallow grave trowsers are also more DPS than my T4 gloves and skulkers greaves. The spreadsheet is telling me the change in gear and dropping +8hits to 4/4s are increasing my DPS. However, my hit has dropped to the 280s ( minus spicy talbuk ). Considering the cap is so much higher, and my hit is dropping lower, does this seem right? I know im getting more AP, some extra cirt and even a bit of armor penetration from my gear to make up for it, but it just doesnt seem to make sence.
A DPS upgrade is a DPS upgrade, regardless of how much hit you have. Your own post says "I know I'm getting more AP, some extra crit, and even a bit of armor penetration [...] to make up for it." Stop overthinking it.
I think there was a checkbox somewhere for "Boss level"... defaults to checked.
Like Vulajin said.. an upgrade is an upgrade. If you had 5k AP and ZERO hit.. you'd do more dps than a rogue with 363 hit and 1k AP. If the spreadsheet is saying to go from 8 hit to 4agi/4hit.. you likely have really bad AP. Most rogue stats multiply on each other - having a really good hit rating and nothing else still isn't any good. Letting your stats scale together is generally going to get you better dps. Point for point hit is our best stat.. but the other stats aren't worth nothing, and having more ap/haste/armPen all increase the value of your hit.
* Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
* Cheat Death: When multiple attacks land simultaenously, all those resolved after the attack which triggered Cheat Death will now have their damage reduced by 90% as intended. However, the combat log will still report them doing full damage.
* Hemorrhage: Rank 4 of this ability no longer has its charges consumed by non-physical attacks and spells.
* Hemorrhage weapon damage reduced from 125% to 110%, but the damage debuff has been increased. * Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
* Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush.
* Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase. * Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Seems like some remodelling of Hemo damage is needed for the sheet, since Hemo now can use-up its own charges (if I understand the "This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied" change correctly).
Newest PTR-Patchnpotes:
Rogues
* Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
* Cheat Death: When multiple attacks land simultaenously, all those resolved after the attack which triggered Cheat Death will now have their damage reduced by 90% as intended. However, the combat log will still report them doing full damage.
* Hemorrhage: Rank 4 of this ability no longer has its charges consumed by non-physical attacks and spells.
* Hemorrhage weapon damage reduced from 125% to 110%, but the damage debuff has been increased. * Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
* Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. (They could just have nerfed this at the start and left hemo alone.)
* Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase. * Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Seems like some remodelling of Hemo damage is needed for the sheet, since Hemo now can use-up its own charges (if I understand the "This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied" change correctly).
This would make 0/20/41 a little more interesting, though i doubt it'd beat 20/41/0 in terms of damage, or 11/27/23.
Would love to see the updated spreadsheet that includes this though.
Keep up the good work DMM, we apreciated the effort you have put into helping in the updates.
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This would make 0/20/41 a little more interesting, though i doubt it'd beat 20/41/0 in terms of damage, or 11/27/23.
I ran some numbers on the current spreadsheet, and it seems 20/0/41 is slightly better then 0/20/41. Depending on gear (as always), it can still be slightly ahead of combat, as long as you include the debuff itself in your results.
I'm toying myself with 11/9/41 now, I know I shouldn't take Shadowstep, but maximize DPS, but it's just too much fun to skip.
For those wondering, the build is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Remember to take SnD *over* Precision, unless your +hit is really awfull, but in that case I can't advice taking a Shadowstep build anyway.
Can't wait for a new spreadsheet to get better numbers, about how this would compare to 11/2x/2x
11/2x/2x is dead, except at low gear levels where the poor scaling doesn't show. Using it as a basis for comparison is a bad idea. Shadowstep is also useless as a raiding build. All the change to Sinister Calling achieves is to make Hemo hit at 120%, compared to 125% on live. Changing Hemo so it consumes its own buff is meaningless in a raid situation where all charges are used anyway.
That means that a shadowstep build is modelled pretty accurately by the current (live) spreadsheet: the only effective change is the change in Hemo from 125% to 120% and the bump in the debuff from 36 to 42. These pretty much cancel out, leaving shadowstep exactly as lacklustre as it is today.
11/2x/2x is as dead after 2.3.2 as it was before 2.3: it's not.
At BT level, 11/2x/2x will be lacking compared to combat, because the debuff doesn't scale, while at Kara/Gruul level 11/2x/2x will be performing nicely, and slightly ahead of combat. (Funny enough, this is exactly the reverse of pre-2.3)
What 11/9(10)/41(40) will put on the table is instead is a very well scaling hemo that will rely less and less on the debuff, but more and more on increased AP & agility through Deadliness and Sinister Calling instead. Again, I really hope we'll see this in a spreadsheet soon, I'm sure there will even be some numbercrunchers around who will figure out when the best time is to respec from old hybrid to Sinister Calling. But the most important is still: what will this put to the raid. The question should never be how this will work out on personal damagemeters (because that means you might as well kick the 1 hunter, some paladins and any DPS warriors out of the raid)
Just to put the thought out there: Has anyone had a chance to try out a 0/40/21 hemo build? According to version 2.3.2.4 of the sheet, it actually outperforms a 20/41/0 build in my current gear (almost completely t5 and equivalents) by a tiny margin (~13 dps). This of course is including the hemo debuff in the estimate.
Am I missing some setting somewhere, or does it actually perform that well?
That means that a shadowstep build is modelled pretty accurately by the current (live) spreadsheet: the only effective change is the change in Hemo from 125% to 120% and the bump in the debuff from 36 to 42. These pretty much cancel out, leaving shadowstep exactly as lacklustre as it is today.
One other thing to account for is Shadowstep adding a combo point in 2.3.2. If it's used on a finisher (Rupture) every 30 seconds or so, per your cycle, that makes it essentially 25 energy every 30 seconds since that 5th combo point costs 10 via ShStep instead of 35 via Hemo.
The other consideration, however, is the lost damage from the Hemo that would have otherwise been used to generate that combo point, which is somewhat offset by the extra 20% Rupture damage from the Shadowstep buff.
Considering these two points, I would like to roughly consider Shadowstep as worth between 1/3 and 1/2 of Relentless, but there are other impacts on the finisher cycles that I haven't figured yet. So perhaps someone with more knowledge of the cycle module in this sheet would have interest in figuring the effects of that 10-energy-cp every 30 seconds... Would it be enough to bring the cycle back up from 3s/5s/5r to 5s/5r without the assassination talents? That'd make a big difference in the final DPS figures in the spreadsheet.
Edit: the above is referring to a 0/20/41 arrangement.
Those patch notes do not mention Shadowstep granting a combo point. It will be just as powerful as it was before the patch. At my gear level, 11/9/41 was around 60 dps behind trispec. The Sinister Calling change will bring it closer to trispec, but slightly further away from combat. If you thought Shadowstep was bad for raiding, there is no reason to modify your opinion.
With regards to the new patch notes, I'll try to implement a model of them this weekend.
I expect to make the following changes:
1) Deactivate Hemo as a Debuff when Include Raid Hemo Debuff is active. (So no more double-dipping)
2) Change the Hemo Debuff. Currently I believe it is modeled as 100% uptime. I'm thinking I'm going to change that to 0.5 seconds every 3.5 seconds or a 1/7th uptime and add a dropdown for # of Rogues in the party. Additional Rogues will be calculated with diminishing returns, essentially giving an additional 1/7th relative to the downtime. (i.e 13/49 for 2 rogues 1/7+1/7(6/7) etc.)
3) Restore the Hemo Debuff to Hemo itself.
4) Implement the new patch notes for Sinister Calling.
5) Implement combo point and damage to Shadowstep (if not implemented already). I will probably assume Shadowstep will only be used on Finishers, saving it for the most bang for the buck, as opposed to every 30 seconds used on an instant.
I'm open to comments on the above changes, especially suggestions on what the actual debuff uptime should be after the debuff has been fixed.
Also, if this has already been implemented on the PTR, can someone check on whether the 2/4/6/8/10% means....
a) Hemo becomes 112/114/116/118/120% or
b) Hemo becomes 112.2/114.4/116.6/118.8/121% as Surprise Attacks/Opportunity/Aggression currently are implemented.
I'm guessing the latter and that this damage bonus would be additive with other similar bonuses, but...
It may be easier to see with Backstab, as the base 150% will make integer differences.
Other changes:
1) Armory Import has been delayed as I'm consolidating/reorganizing/formula correcting the item sheets as I'm adding in an ItemID field. Many formulas have been coded with relative references (when absolute references would have been preferred) which is making the process a little more time-consuming than I expected. I've been correcting these references to be absolute references as I find them. I'm converting the item sheets to have a standard order of fields and doing the same for enchants/gems. This may pay dividends in the future if Blizzard ever adds enchants/gems with -Armor, Expertise or any other stat not currently modeled in the spreadsheet. This will also make it easier to add new fields in the future (at least when I track down the last of these references).
2) I've found a few more typos/corrections to item stats.
3) I'll add the previous mentioned suggested Seal Fate fix.
4) I'll look over the sheet posted above...
Has anyone ever tried to model premeditation knowing that a rogue with elusiveness can vanish reliably 3 times during most 5-10min fights. (1 early vanish, 2nd when the cooldown is up, 3rd using Prep).
I wonder how it would synergize with Initiative (w/ garotte), Master of subtelty and Shadowstep.
Assuming a bleedable boss that is sub-35% health. Vanish---> Premed--> garotte w/ initiative proc ---> Shadowstep ---> 5cp Rupture would make up for some pretty scary rupture numbers.
Would the rupture ticks lose dmg once the master of subtlety buff wears off ? (I never gave deep sub builds a try.)
Has anyone ever tried to model premeditation knowing that a rogue with elusiveness can vanish reliably 3 times during most 5-10min fights. (1 early vanish, 2nd when the cooldown is up, 3rd using Prep).
I wonder how it would synergize with Initiative (garotte), Master of subtelty and Shadowstep.
Assuming a bleedable boss that is sub-35% health. If you can manage to have some extra energy inbetween cycles and that you're sitting at 2CP : Vanish--> garotte w/ initiative proc ---> Shadowstep ---> 5cp Rupture would make up for some pretty scary rupture numbers.
Would the rupture ticks lose dmg once the master of subtlety buff wears off ? (I never gave deep sub builds a try.)
I am not rightly able to understand the kind of confusion necessary to make this suggestion.
Rupture accounts for about 10% of your DPS even on a static nuke fight.
During this time, you will use about 15 ruptures
You are talking about a 9% buff to the damage of (at most) 2 of them
So, 9% * 10% * 2/15 = 0.12% DPS. This is not significant.
I am not rightly able to understand the kind of confusion necessary to make this suggestion.
Rupture accounts for about 10% of your DPS even on a static nuke fight.
During this time, you will use about 15 ruptures
You are talking about a 9% buff to the damage of (at most) 2 of them
So, 9% * 10% * 2/15 = 0.12% DPS. This is not significant.
I spaced out while typing my post earlier (just got out of one of my finals). The scenario that I wanted to point out was :
Start at 0 CP, Vanish --> premed --> garotte w/ initiative proc --> ShS --> 5pt rupture. That's just an example of what you could do with premed, the 6 second master of subtlety damage increase and the ShS damage increase.
It's a no brainer that it isn't a huge DPS increase but I wonder if it's high enough to warrant modeling it.
12/11/07, 5:44 PM
I'm always amazed we even have something like this, and at the same time very thankful we do!
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