Well, I started off by looking at how Combat Daggers and Mutilate compared if I did the following:

1) Took the default gear in the speadsheet
2) Changed to Gladiator swords
3) Saved the DPS
4) Changed to Gladiator daggers
5) Changed the talent builds only (no gear changes) and examined the results as compared to the saved DPS

I did this for both the 2.3.2.5 sheet (as available from rogue.raidcal.com) and the 2.3.2.5a sheet (as posted earlier in the thread). The "official" sheet has a high-end gear set, while 2.3.2.5a has an intermediate gear set, so I thought I'd do both. Since both default sets started with combat builds, they are obviously tailored to combat (gemming, etc), but it should still show any horrific bugs with the system.

The results were:

2.3.2.5 - Used Vengeful Gladiator weapons
Combat Daggers 15/41/5*: -8.56 Buffed DPS (-0.69%)
Mutilate 41/20/0: -82.10 Buffed DPS (-7.02%)

2.3.2.5a - Used Merciless Gladiator weapons
Combat Daggers 15/41/5: -19.78 Buffed DPS (-1.23%)
Mutilate 41/20/0: -133.04 Buffed DPS (-8.92%)

Looks ok to me, but as I have time I'll get into the formulas. (Wow, there are a lot of formulas.)

*What I got bogged down on, however, is a bug with Ruthlessness. For the 2.3.2.5 version of the sheet, if I put 0/3 in ruthlessness I get a bunch of "#DIV/0!" errors in pretty much everything. (This only happens if I'm running a backstab build.) I looked for a while, but I can't find the source of the error... too many things were erroring. I had to put 1/3 in Ruthlessness just to get the sheet to be happy with me and spit out numbers. I'll try to look more later, but it may not happen over Christmas break much. Maybe someone else can see if they can duplicate the bug? Just follow my methods above and it should show up.

The Mutilate attack damage itself scales better than the Backstab attack damage itself. I'm just looking at they yellow damage output by the attack itself - nothing else. (Thus, in a Mutilate build, Mutilate > Backstab. Not true of using Backstab in a combat build.) I can put up a chart sometime if anyone is interested.

This is NOT saying that a Mutilate build will beat combat daggers. As a whole combat system, Backstab builds scale much better due to combat potency.

Looks like it's a problem with a 5s cycle (which is what is getting recommended in those cases with Backstab). Apparently the sheet doesn't like to have 0 finisher damage. Shouldn't be too hard to track down I'd think.

As to Mutilate, I guess I didn't consider that at very low gear levels, it might be better than Combat Swords in some circumstances. I just get worried when I see too many posts about more esoteric builds besting Combat Swords. If it's still behind at the more serious raiding gear levels, it might not have a problem.

I found the problem, you get a division by 0 in the DPS sheets I8, I9, I10 when you have 0 finisher damage per second (as from a 5s cycle). Fixed on my copy now. Just changed the end of those cells to.

(IF(AND(NOT(Talents!R30),Q18>0),1+Talents!M19/(30*Q18),1)

Apparently the recent Shadowstep change to finisher damage didn't consider that you might not have any finishers.

Nice, thanks. I fixed that and the sheet is much happier now.

Mutilate could very well be "better" than combat swords at very low gear levels. It has a lot of static damage built-in (+252*1.5 on each mutilate attack; +20% poison damage) which will make a much better contribution at low gear levels than high.

When I plugged in a 70 "blue" set (lots of Wastewalker + other blue rogue pieces) with no gems or enchants, Mutilate still didn't exceed combat swords, but it was much closer (within 4%).

I'm sure that someone mentioned this before but it's missing [Waistguard of the Great Beast] for belt slot

it's a druid tanking item from my point

For a combat swords build, using EP (as described in Roguecraft 101):

Waistguard of the Great Beast
+29 Strength ---> 29 * 1.10 = 31.90 EP
+28 Agility ---> 28 * 2.21 = 61.88 EP
+30 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Blue Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Red Socket ---> 18.1 EP
Socket Bonus: +3 Strength ---> 0 EP (won't socket for this)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 18. ---> 18 * 2.31 = 41.58 EP
Total: 31.90 + 61.88 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 41.58 = 171.56 EP

Girdle of the Deathdealer
+28 Agility ---> 61.88 EP
+28 Stamina ---> 0 EP
Equip: Improves hit rating by 20. ---> 20 * 2.31 = 46.20 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 56. ---> 56 EP.
Total: 61.88 + 46.20 + 56 = 164.08 EP

Belt of Deep Shadow
+32 Agility ---> 32 * 2.21 = 70.72 EP
+14 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Blue Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Blue Socket ---> 18.1 EP
Socket Bonus: +3 Agility ---> 0 EP (assume you don't socket for it)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 18. ---> 41.58 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 66. ---> 66 EP
Total: 70.72 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 41.58 + 66 = 214.50 EP

The Waistguard is hardly an upgrade over the Girdle from Heroic BM, and if you're capable of farming the 60-or-whatever badges for the Waistguard, you're sure as heck capable of farming the Girdle. Or if you're Scryer, pick up [Socrethar's Girdle], which is around 150 EP. Either way you'll eventually pick up a Belt of Deep Shadow or [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], so in no sense can the Waistguard be considered worthwhile.

(edit) Editing this post to avoid harping on the same thing repeatedly and shitting up the thread. My point is more that, if someone actually has the ability to obtain the 290 badges required to get the bracers, boots, pants, and gloves (all of which are almost certainly better upgrades than the belt) and then the belt, then they almost certainly are doing Kara, which means eventually they will very much be capable of ZA and obtaining, say, [Bladeangel's Money Belt]. Additionally, the badges might be spent instead on [Choker of Vile Intent], [Bloodlust Brooch], or [Dory's Embrace] (another 126). Even for a rogue with no access to ZA or SSC, it'd be downright foolish to spend badges on that belt, unless you literally do heroics nonstop for months on end.

I'm not sure I follow you here. "hardly an upgrade" is still an upgrade. If a rogue finds themselves able to choose between the two, why not take the Druid belt? Many rogues out there are in guild that don't have much of a hope of seeing SSC (and thus unable to get 100 deaths. I suppose Deep Shadow could be bought, though). At any rate, since it's better than several other belts already on the sheet and is also easily attainable, there's no reason why it shouldn't be included.

All that being said, if you really want to use it, it's an easy process to add it yourself, too.

Not if you don't do SSC. The OP said that it's the best belt you can get outside SSC/ZA, and as far as I can see you're in full agreement. Yes, it's only a minor upgrade over Deathdealer or Socrethar's, but it's still an upgrade. Not quite sure why you therefore say it's not worthwhile. If you're not raiding, but still getting badges, what else is there to do with them?

Edited to add: Buying a Belt of Deep Shadow isn't usually an option. Guilds drop T5 content like a hot potato as soon as they're attuned to T6, by which point it's rare for them to have completely kitted their own members. That means that Vortex stuff never comes up for sale, period.

Really? On our server the Belt of Deep Shadow has been available for purchase for the past 4 months. Waiting periods? Yes. But always available for the right price.

Anyway, sorry I was away at a family funeral. I'll model it. One of the great features of this sheet is the wide variety of gear it covers. Even if a piece of gear is mildly inferior to other available options, it should probably be modeled if not just to show how far behind better items it is. There are a number of Kara pieces that I really question their value. Off the top of my head Farstrider Wildercloak (something like that) is still modeled. Not very good at all, but...

So, if there are other items people think are at least worthy of rogue consideration (even if they are clearly intended for Druids first) let me know and I will add them.

How about the Skyguard Silver Cross (Sha'tari Skyguard exalted trinket). Its flat Crit Rating boost is probably all that should be modelled for bossfight sustained dps but it's worth noting that, on things like Vashj elemental duty, the 'on killing blow' effect is up for a considerable amount of time.

Skyguard Silver Cross - Items - World of Warcraft

Seal Fate is built into the cycle sheet formulas. To look at them you will need to "Unhide" the Buffed and Unbuffed Cycle sheets. For the moment, Seal Fate is modeled with averages, as if you can land exactly on 5 Combo Points every time, thus still a bit overvalued for any 5s or 5e or 5r cycle. It shortens cycle time based on the expected cycle point generation and (the recently fixed bug) reduces the number of instants per cycle. Previously, it was shortening the cycle time but still giving you credit as if the all the combo points were produced by your instant attack.

As to Skyguard Silver Cross, I just added that yesterday (modeled as expected) per a previous request as the item format migration is nearing completion and I got to trinkets (just Gems and Weapons left which may or may not be trickier as the general format is a little different). I'm also planning on expanding the Talent selection per request to include all talents with talent totals on the bottom. I have been sent a very nice model which I'm going to adopt and want to add a little more information at the top of the gear sheets. I've also added Naliko's Revenge, a lower level ring.

A new version (2.3.2.6) should be posted soon. An important note, Talent Import will not work from prior versions. I've completely retooled the Talent page and unfortunately this meant making significant enough changes that maintaining Import compatibility would have been more than tedious. The Talent Import is functional with this version and should continue into later versions.

Hi all,

I was trying the spread sheet version 2.3.2.5 and I noticed one issue, I'm not sure if its me missing some parameters or is it the spreed sheet it self, so I figured I may try asking around here.

I was testing those gems with the Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots, and this is what I got:

Option 1:

12 agility enchants
Shifting Nightseye (4agi/6sta)
Glinting Noble Topaz (4agi/4hit)
+3 hit socket bonus

Total off 20 agi, +7 hit and 6 sta = according to the spreed sheet +19.87 dps unbuffered (I think its too much)

Option 2:

12 agility enchants
Glinting Noble Topaz (4agi/4hit)
Glinting Noble Topaz (4agi/4hit)
no socket bonus

Total off 20 agi and +8 hit = according tot he spreed sheet +8.85 dps unbuffed (should be more then option 1)


My point here is how come option 1 is showing higher DPS then option two. shouldn't it be the other way? can some one please point me out, I may have overlooked something!

regards

Maybe the blue gem in option two activates your metasocket? Just asking, since I had a similar experience when switching boots in the spreadsheet and wondering how selecting Shadowmaster's could drop me by almost 30 DPS

Edit: Looking at your armory, I assume it does. In addition, you don't even hace it activated in your current gear.

minor bug: Against human type mobs you don't get the damage bonus from murder atm.

Hello

I'm often using the sheet to test some gears or specs, so I'm often changing templates or full stuffs. I know that I can use the import button to import stuff or talents, but then I have to make one copy of the spreadsheet for each stuff or for each template.

Is there a way to export only important data without the whole sheet? For exemple saving only the points such as the template generators url for the templates or a text file with the objects ID for the stuff. This could take much less memory and be easily usable from one versino to another.

Triel

Please keep the bugs coming. A lot of things changed and often with changes new bugs might be introduced. For example, I did a quick once through of the macros and noticed the Next Stat function were no longer pointing to the talents they were supposed to (from changes in past versions). It's possible other references may have been messed up by my current migration.

As to a simplified gear import, expect at least part of that next version. I have the wow armory import close to functional as of last night. It seems to work for the talents and is properly pulling the item data to the import sheet, I need to write the ItemID to Name lookup routine (or alter my data structure a little to use the existing routine) and do some testing. It should be possible to use the import sheet to do what you ask or export that as an XML template, just not sure how far I'm going to get since I want to give Open Office support some love too.

I'll post more when I get home from work as there are a couple things like Mob Type that are only partially implemented. (I didn't take the time to track down all the items that have that type of stat for example, but needed to put that in to get the ball rolling). Probably best to leave that set to "Any" for the moment until it is fully implemented.

Very minor mistype, [Midnight Chestguard] is entered as Midnight Cestguard.

A minor typo I see is that on the Boss Armor Estimates, Void Reaver is listed as an SSC boss.

Ok, so the official new version post....

2.3.2.6 dmm
changed Revamped Talent UI (New talent format thanks to Graecus!)
Revamped behind-the-scenes item tables (including Item IDs)
added Pulldown for Mob Type (Murder now applies to the correct mob types and can now be turned off)
Apexis Crystal Mace
Naliko's Revenge
Skyguard Silver Cross
Waistguard of the Great Beast
Charmed Amani Jewel
Unstable Amethyst
Balanced Shadow Draenite
Steady Talasite
Mystic Dawnstone
Unstable Citrine
Wicked Flame Spessarite
Potent Unstable Diamond
removed Blackhand's Breadth
Rigid Bladestone
fixed Avg Haste calculations
Bug for cycles with no finishers
Trinket 2 and Backs now properly copy to the Gear_Upgrade page.
A few issues with the Macro NextStat calculations with talents

Plus, a few comments...
As to the Talents page, Graecus sent me a spreadsheet with a revamped Talent Tree. Although I had planned something similar, seeing it done, I moved up the revamping. Since I revamped the talents, I also felt it was time to consolidate all the little checkboxes that were starting to roam throughout the page. I feel the new page is much more user friendly. It's also very nice to know you haven't overspent points by mistake. There is no error-checking and this is intentional. Items not in bold, have no effect on the spreadsheet, add them or omit them as you wish. Also, if people want to play around with talents, to see which combinations might do what, I didn't want to make them jump through all the hoops in the way of prereqs to get further down that tree.

Which brings up "Mobtype"...ok, since it became time to remodel, it was also time to introduce the Interface for my future plans. Customizable boss options. Hence, the ability to optimize gear for specific bosses. Besides my mistake with Humans and Murder, mobtype is only partially implemented. Error checking the item lists is on a future agenda and having Mobtype defined allows me to add that as I go. For the moment, (when fixed) it pretty much turns Murder on and off and works with the Argent Dawn/Kael'thus trinkets until I implement it for other items.

I did get a chance to take a decent one-time look through all the macros, found and fixed a few minor bugs and am now on top of the situation with those.

Upcoming plans for next version...
1) Fix things I screwed up this time (i.e. Murder and Humans)
2) More bug fixes (typos, Void Reaver hanging out with Vashj, etc)
3) Wow Armory Import. This is almost ready. I got past two major stumbling blocks (found the XML Library I was missing; Found and fixed the error I kept getting --- damn you Slot -1, worked for priests because Wands don't use ammo). Talent Import works like a charm (if I put all the talents in the right order...anyway).

Maybe in the next version, maybe after that...
4) Local Import/Export, something so that I don't need 5 full copies of the spreadsheet for testing...although using Armory Import I could find different people at different progression levels.
5) Next Stat work for OO support. I noticed a number of minor issues throughout, I need to go through this page and fix formulas relative to recent talent changes and the like.
6) Gem Color support. I was playing around a little with Conditional Formating and want to make the available Gem Slots turn the color of the required gem.

As I go, future progress...
7) Item double-check. (Add Parry, Defense, mobtype conditionals) I want to add Parry and Defense for avoidance calcs as there can be a case for having enough to Evasion tank for 15 secs.
8) Migrate Formulas into a more development friendly format.
9) Formula checking.
10) Revisit PPM and proc calculations for accuracy.
11) Cycle work.
12) Figure out work arounds for more accurate Open Office use.
13) I'm sure I'm missing things...so here...misc.

I'm putting a fair amount of emphasis on the Import functions as they will make life easier for you, me and everyone else as versions change. Once that is in place, I plan to focus more on the math and accuracy of the sheet. Of course if people pitch or offer up good development ideas (like revamping the talent tree with talent totals and the like), I'll move those up as appropriate.

Feel free to offer suggestions, and if you have ideas to develop something, like me know.