Ilmater

I have a shadow priest in our guild with +836 spell damage... so not bad at all for Kara raiding. However, he's been at the bottom of the damage charts every run we've been in, and he's competing against lots of different classes and gear levels (many below his). So I'm not sure on a few things and I was hoping that some shadow priests here can help me answer a few questions:

- When do you use VE?
- Does VT generate threat like VE does? (don't think so, just checking)
- Would you EVER use VE in a 10-man with 3 healers?
- Where should a shadow priest be on the damage charts in Kara (realizing he has to shackle, etc.)?
- What spell rotation do you use? More specifically, what percentage (guess if you don't know) of your damage comes from each spell? (most of his was from SW:P and Mind Blast, I think)

I'm not coming down on him, I think he's a good guy and plays well (he can manage to shackle just fine), but I just can't believe he's at the bottom of the charts over demo locks and such.

Any help/advice is appreciated.

 

Brakar

The long answer is wade through the 25 pages of The Shadow Priest Thread

The short answers are:
-Almost always use VE. If you're only in Karazhan, always use it.
-Last I saw, the consensus was mana return from VT is threatless (or close enough to consider it threatless) but I'm not sure if this has been proven one way or the other.
-All the time
-Depends on group synergy, gear, and spec, but should be competitive with everyone.
-Shadow priests don't have a clean cycle of spells with so many various CDs and DoT times. It's more of a priority system, Cast the highest spell that either is missing like a dot or off of cooldown like Mind Blast. The basic order I use is VE, VT, SW: Pain, SW: Death, Mind Blast, Mind Flay. He'll need to get a feel for when the damage from SW: Death is too likely to cause his death (Curator during evocate, Netherspite with blue beam, etc) but most of the time it's fine to use. The other thing is how long his mana will hold out. For mana concerns only, first drop Mind Blast and then SW: Death from the above priority list to help mana last longer.

For general split of damage, here's my latest Gruul kill with me going all out for damage (and all drunk for other reasons I won't get into so not my best performance.) WWS This is a reasonable % split on the damage.

 

tedv

I'd bet dollars to donuts he isn't doing a good job of refreshing Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch. Over 90% of the WWS parses of under-performing priests I've seen have that issue.

 

Ilmater

Can you explain this better?

 

galzohar

VT and SW:P should always be up (as well as VE). Every shadow priest should have some kind of a DoT timer so VT can be recasted 1.5s before it wears off so it gets reapplied the second it wears off, and that way all your damage always gives mana back. SW:P is huge damage per cast time and therefore should always be refreshed as soon as it wears off as well.

 

Thezilch

The single best mod for a Shadowpriest will be a DoT timer.

ClassTimer
DotDotDot
DoTimer

DoTs should always be applied upon fade, which for VT often means casting the next VT in the last 1.5 seconds of the current VT application.

 

Meltface

Its also difficult to get good DPS since parts of Kara are AoE based, where we just don't do as well. In general, I only look at the boss DPS charts and ignore the trash or zone-in to zone-out DPS charts.

 

• alinna

-I always use VE in Karazhan.
-VT threat hasn't been a problem for me, but I'm actually not sure if it does.
-I always use VE, I don't have problems with it in Karazhan.
-This would depend on the fight. Curator/Netherspite I can usually top the damage meter. Prince is much harder due to the fact that shadow priests have to move a bit as you have to be in shadow nova range while DPSing. For Moroes, I don't find shackling to interfere too much with my DPS - usually redo it when Moroes vanishes, or after an add goes down.
-I usually have a spell priority list: VT / SW:P / SW / Mind Blast / Mind Flay is my priority to keep up. I throw up VE usually on the pull and refresh when needed. A good DoT timer is essential to good DPS. For example, I will usually refresh VT when it has less than 1.5 seconds and try to avoid clipping the last tick of the DoT while not having it fall off for very long. On fights where I can go all out: 27% Mind Flay, 26% SW:P, 21% VT, 16% Mind Blast, 10% SW. However, I do not have the 15% crit talent, or improved Mind Blast, so priests with that will have more damage from Mind Blast/SW.

 

Lurrr

I agree with Thezilch. Bars for stuff is essential.

Another really cool mod that can optimize performance is "coolDown" (found on files.wowace.com), which can display cooldowns on MB, inner focus, trinkets, SW:Death and so on.
Keeping things on CD is essential for shadowpriest dps.

Another hint i have is: Shadow Word: Death.
This is an instant cast, which can crit almost as high as MB. And if you have both dots and VE up then the self-inflicted damage will be healed in no time. Just notify healers that you will be using it.

Basicly just get used to looking at bars and use it to plan your next action.

 

tedv

Shadow Word: Pain lasts for 24 seconds and Vampiric Touch lasts for 15 seconds. A lot of priests waits 30+ seconds between refreshes of Shadow Word: Pain and refresh Touch at the same time. This means Pain will only deal damage 70% of the fight and Touch will deal damage 50% of the time. It's a lot of wasted DPS.

 

Mackabre

-Always use VE in Karazhan.
-VT generates threat like VE from the maths I have seen on the shadowpriest forums. Thus it generates 0.5 threat per health/mana returned.
-Yes always use VE.
-For karazhan, SP's do a lot of other things along with actually dps/mana returning. If you're tracking just boss fights dmg, then he should place relatively high. Usually around the top 3. However for trash, it's clear with shackles and mobs dying <20 seconds, that he'll place low.
-Most of his dmg should be coming from SWP,Mindflay,VT,MB,SWD usually in that order.


There is no rotation for an SP, as noted in the other EJ topics about SP's. Tell him to get a DoT timer such as DoTimers. They are perfect for helping you keep track of your dots and allowing you to maximize your dps from them.

 

Thezilch

As for VT's threat, a shadowpriest will generate 50% -- of the mana given -- as threat. For that reason, Blessing of Salvation is the single most important buff, because we have no means of shedding threat permanently.

 

galzohar

Afaik 1 point of mana regen generates equal threat to 1 point of HP regened. Since you regen a lot less mana than you regen HPs the threat from VT is hardly noticeable.

 

Mackabre

No, thats incorrect. Almost always an SP is partied with the mage/hunter group or healer group. They will always need mana and thus you regen their mana more than their health. The VE healing is the one thats negligible.

 

heel

Getting back to the original concern - Shadow priest at the bottom of the meters - as everyone else has said, make him get a DoT timer. Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain need to be up at all times, ideally refreshed just as they expire. Barring that, there's not that much to it. Something to consider is that your Shadow priest friend's damage potential might not just be that high. I don't know how it is with that level of gear (and without chain-chugging mana pots, I am assuming), but it might be that he's just not capable of beating the other casters.

 

Proxy

As far as I know all health healed by VE is turned into threat to the spriest. All mana returned by VT however, is counted as threat to the receiver of it.

VE is the thing I drop first, when threat is capping my dps. In Karahazan this usually is not a problem at all, so I keep VE up, just to be nice to the healers who get nervous because of my SWD crits.

Shackling is of almost no concern to dps (use a focus macro!), but especially on trash I need to go full out on the SWD/MB cooldowns to keep up with the other dps classes like BM-hunters, locks and mages.

And yes, keeping up your DoT's is the most important thing to do on bosses. That's where I tend to slow down on the SWD's, because I was a healer before I got lured onto the dark side.

When I'm lazy, at the Prince, I keep just at 40y alongside the mages, and keep SWP an VT up on the boss and blast a MB every cooldown. This still nets me almost 600dps which is enough in a good group. On easy bosses like Attumen, I get almost to 1000dps by using VT, SWP and MB. Think I could easily get higher if I start SWD'ing as well.../flex

 

tfp

As strange as it is, I made the observation that bad shadow priests do higher DPS if they drop casting Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death.

Just let them use VE, VT, SW:P and Mind Flay.
If they do good DPS (~500 DPS+) with that and are familiar with the casts and DoT refreshs, they can weave Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death into it.

Im pretty lazy and on most fights, I won't drink so many potions... so I do myself only a VE, VT, SW:P, Flay rotation. 500-700 DPS are no problem with 900 +Dmg.

 

galzohar

If you do 1000 DPS your regen 50 mana per caster per second resulting in 125 tps. Not negligible but considering 1000 dps is several hundreds tps already it's not that big. On AOE fights where everyone take damage VE generates 5 times as much threat as VT which is where it gets significant. While shadow priests get extra threat from VE/VT you have 25% threat reduction from talents while mages/warlocks get 10% and do less DPS overall. So unless you're VE healing you should generate threat aggro slower than mages/warlocks in general with equal buffs. Of course mages/warlocks can also clear their aggro making things much easier for them in the long run when aggro is a problem. Anyway not using VT is out of the question anyway. VE should be manageable as well especially if your healers are actually doing their job and VE is just topping people off (shouldn't ever let VE heal big damage anyway as you risk the player getting hit again and dying). If your tank is doing under 800 tps tell him to step it up, if he's doing under 600 get a new tank.

 

woobsauce

First, to truly maximize one's dps on trash pulls, avoiding the use of VE on some trash pulls is acceptable. However, on pulls which you know the group will be taking damage (ie the ghost pulls after the Shade of Aran) it is invaluable.

Assuming the priest in your group is properly spec'd and has 3/3 Shadow Affinity he should be generating 25% less threat, and thus the slow healing he will be doing to the group should be neglegable toward his threat generation (assuming he is not having problems with that)

On the vast Majority of boss fights however, VE should almost always be used as the heals done by VE serve as a constant, weak HoT on the group. On the level that VE functions as a HoT for the group and it's overhealing doesn't generate threat it should be up at all times. The GCD associated with it every one minute is not going to be detrimental to your dps. Personally, to get a good dps lead in the fight, i save my GCD's as much as possible and skip VE for the first part of some boss fights (also note that the loss of VE to start the fights also reduces your threat generation significantly for the start of the boss fight. Typically being in a warlock group or even healing yourself from SWord Death is still invaluable threat reduction.)

Second, from what I have learned and observed, there is little to no threat associated with mana returns. A lot of people associating their threat generation may be attributing the threat with the shadowmend from the 3/3 FSW set bonus (though I am not certain that generates threat, it is just a theory).

Third, using VE should be done without hesitation. Though you may have the healing to keep up the group and tanks, check how much healing the priest will do spread out over his/her entire group. It is invaluable to have up, and also can generate mana as well as to paladins who have been hit by some sort of group damaging gimmick. On trash pulls it may not always seem to be worth the global cooldown, if you can spare it, its certainly worth throwing up. At the very most you lose a mindflay or mindblast/death cast time.

Fourth, as for damage, it really depends on not only the priest, but also the group. In endgame gear from what I have observed not only from the guild(s) I've been in, shadow priests toward the endgame content don't have quite the dps of good rogues/mages. However, with a warlock in the group, I again can only assume that shadow vulnerability is up on bosses or trash at some point, should give his dps a huge boost. Though shadow priests boost the entire group's dps with Misery, his own should be substantial as well. From personal experience, a shadow priest with almost 900 spell damage should be able to sustain at least 700-800 dps, and if he is coasting anywhere less than that, he/she is probably being sloppy. And, not to be harsh, but if keeping his eye on a shackled mob is really that detrimental to his dps he/she might want to consider beating a spell priority list into his/her mind so he can walk and chew gum, and do the group much more good.

He/she shouldn't be on the bottom of the damage meters, nor anywhere near it. Though, I would take into consideration the posts earlier, they were correct in stating that many pulls in karazhan are aoe based, and skew the meters. I also recommend watching boss meters, but keep an eye out on trash meters to make sure everyone is paying attention.

The most constructive advice anyone here could possibly give is to keep dots refreshed. I've seen talented players drop from top 5 to 12th on gruul meters simply because their DoTimer stopped working. It is imperative that you keep dots refreshed not only for your dps, but for the sake of the groups health and mana regeneration.

Personally, once you get the gear to pull it off, I would recommend spec'ing into the improved mb talent, and making sure you have 5/5 shadow power. Also, make sure you are hit capped (5/5 shadow focus probably with his gear - again, another assumption/educated guess), it is more important for you to be hit capped than to have more +dmg or +crit. Each time you get resisted your dps is ruined, or any rhythm you have may be thrown off (side note: each resisted shadow word pain is about a wasted 600 mana, the equivelant of three mind flays). I would recommend putting MB and Death as a priority, and keep them on CD as they are your highest dps spells, but the least mana efficient. Make sure you refresh a DoT before casting either one, as they are a huge bulk of your dps, and are worth prioritizing. Finally, mindflay is only a filler spell in between dots and blast/death. It is the most mana efficient spell in the game, as once you hit a certain gear curve your mindflay time is actually gaining you mana back. However, as mana efficient as it is, it is also your lowest dps spell. Use it only if you have nothing to refresh/put back on cooldown.

Edit: It would help us greatly if you could post his/her spec and gear so we could help associate a higher dps spec, or even a more effective one. Also, most shadow priests at endgame raid gear (or full tailors) can sustain over 1000 dps, 500-700 is not acceptable, even in karazhan. The reason that rotation suggested earlier lends itself to little use of consumables is simply due to the fact it is the most mana efficient possible, but also the lowest constant dps. You want to hit this high dps cap not just for the sake of high dps, but because you are returning the most mana to the group. You may need to chain chug mana pots on a boss fight with mashing MB and Death, but it will do the most overall good for the group/raid. Also, the TPS of mana returning (should it exist) is so minute is almost pointless to consider, the vast majority of your threat comes from doing damage and the healing done to the group.

Edit #2: Two days later - capitalized two I's (I hate you Kalk).

 

Illysandre

Something you might also wish to check on, is his spell hit rating. Ideally, he should have 76 to spellhit to minimize resists.

 

Ilmater

Here is his spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Things are generally alright there, though wand specialization... hmmm.

I also noticed that he could gem some things differently. I have a few thoughts/questions:

- Which shadow spells can crit?
- Is crit rating worthwhile for shadow priests? How much is it worth vs. +dmg?

Overall, I think we found that a big problem he was having was not using SW Death, and he's worked that into his rotation now from time to time. He's still not topping the charts, though, even if you take out boss fights, and he's got significantly better gear than many around him.

Right now, he has 158 crit rating, and I think that's a large part of his issue. He also has too much hit rating (98)!!!! His spell damage is 861 with shadow, and that can be upped by 74 just by adding in a lot of +dmg gems and getting rid of hit rating gems. I worked out the following tradeoff:

+64 spell dmg
-24 sta
-8 int
-12 crit rating
- 24 hit rating

That hit rating will put him only 2 points below his hit cap, so I don't see a problem there (rather that than have him over his cap), but adding 64 spell damage will make a huge difference I believe.

Thanks for all your help, and please help with those questions above... I play a fire mage and crit rating is FAR less valuable than +dmg (1.8 : 1), and all of my spells can crit, so I'm guessing that crit rating is basically useless to shadow priests, but I wanted to check.

 

• Fishie

That's a very strange spec. I don't understand 8 in Disc, particularly if you're not getting Imp Fort. I also don't understand Imp Psychic Scream but not Silence which would still be somewhat useful at Karazhan level. Further, I sincerely doubt he has the mana to use MB on every cooldown before talents so putting points in Imp MB confuses me more.

MB and SWD are our critting spells. Crit rating is worthwhile, yes but it's hard to quantify how much crit is worth vs spell damage - with only 861 +damage it would be a very low priority for me.

Frankly, from what you're telling us the best thing you can do is point him to this and other forums that discuss how to play a shadow priest well. That spec and the gems you state he is using make it pretty clear that he doesn't understand a lot of basics.

 

tedv

Ironically I was just crunching numbers on this last night. With around 1300 spell damage buffed, the tradeoff seems to be roughly 8 crit rating = 1 spell damage, assuming you are using Death and Blast every cooldown. That's really bad but it's not technically worthless. Since it's so easy to hit the hit cap, it might be worth rating crit as a more valuable stat than hit.

 

dedmonwakeen