[Priest] Shadow Priest Damage and Spell Rotation - Page 2

Ilmater · 07/19/07, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Fishie

That's a very strange spec. I don't understand 8 in Disc, particularly if you're not getting Imp Fort. I also don't understand Imp Psychic Scream but not Silence which would still be somewhat useful at Karazhan level. Further, I sincerely doubt he has the mana to use MB on every cooldown before talents so putting points in Imp MB confuses me more.

MB and SWD are our critting spells. Crit rating is worthwhile, yes but it's hard to quantify how much crit is worth vs spell damage - with only 861 +damage it would be a very low priority for me.

Frankly, from what you're telling us the best thing you can do is point him to this and other forums that discuss how to play a shadow priest well. That spec and the gems you state he is using make it pretty clear that he doesn't understand a lot of basics.

Would this be a better build?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

• Fishie · 07/19/07, 6:28 PM

This forum community generally tries to dissuade "rate my build" threads, so I'm not going to comment further. I will suggest that you have your struggling priest friend review Armory profiles for any of the Shadow Priests commenting here if he's looking for opinions.

Helping you understand a good Shadow Priest build really won't help him perform better - he needs to do the learning himself.

Thezilch · 07/19/07, 6:41 PM

Few observations about low +dmg shadowpriests:

Less damage amounts to less mana for more damage. As a result, MB and SW: D become less established in rotations (as they are low HPM -- high DPS, if sustained).

With the idea that MB and SW; D are less frequent in low +dmg rotations, the benefit of +crit is diminished. +crit is already "useless" to a shadowpriest, with respect to equal itemization points spent in +dmg. I've never seen a case where I would socket / purchase (on item) +crit over raw +dmg.

Furthermore, talents such as Imp. MB and Shadow Power become less valuable as stability of MB and SW: D casts decreases. Depending on latency and use of UI / stopcasting, I'd only recommend 1/5 Imp. MB to a low +dmg shadowpriest. I can't see a 4/5 rotation being sustained, even grouped with a resto shaman.

Caligula · 07/19/07, 6:52 PM

shadowpriest.com :: Index

That would be a good place to send him to start. There are many threads devoted to spec, spell rotation and gear, even moreso than here.

The second build you posted is only marginally better than the first. Going 10 deep in disc and not taking inner fire is a travesty. My build is pretty standard if you want to check it out (although he'll probably want 5/5 Shadow Focus, my gear has an abundance of + hit so I took a point out of there to use elsewhere).

tedv · 07/19/07, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

That actually listed 11:1 if you are hit capped and have 1400 damage. At any rate the order of magnitude is consistent with the theorycraft.

Correction; the data actually says 11 crit = 1 DPS and 2.2 spell damage = 1 DPS, so 5 crit = 1 spell damage seems reasonable.

Thezilch · 07/19/07, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Correction; the data actually says 11 crit = 1 DPS and 2.2 spell damage = 1 DPS, so 5 crit = 1 spell damage seems reasonable.

The simulations don't account for anything beyond mechanical latency, which is averaged below even expected mechanical throughputs (Re: G15 Keyboard). 0.15 seconds is roughly the minimum latency one can expect in a "perfect" setting. The simulation assumes 0.05 to 0.15 average. Meaning, beyond underestimated mechanical latency, the simulation doesn't even support human or UI (FPS -- worse in some raid settings) latency.

Also, the simulation uses 6.0 second SW: D.

All that being said, real world practices will dictate nearly twice as much as the simulations quote (9+ crit : 1 dmg), and that is still tipping the scale towards perfect conditions where you can and do always use talented MB and SW: D on cooldown.

Ultimately, there is no itemization -- that I have seen -- that supports anything beyond looking at maximum +dmg in the slot. There are a select few items supporting huge +hit increases, with the loss of ~1-2 +dmg, to enable reallocation of Shadow Focus talents.

Caligula · 07/19/07, 8:40 PM

Whether you assume either extreme of 5:1 or 9:1, neither is anywhere close to 1:1. With the current itemization budgets there is not a single piece of gear that I can think of that I would want to substitute a crit heave piece for another that is +damage or +hit heavy.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what spreadsheet you use, +damage gear will be vastly superior to +crit gear and the former will result in higher sustained DPS. Saying "+crit is useless" is an ignorant statement, as crit will still increase damage, however, with the current state of shadow priest talents and spell mechanics it will *never* beat out +damage and you should only have +crit on your gear secondarily to +damage.

dedmonwakeen · 07/20/07, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

The simulations don't account for anything beyond mechanical latency, which is averaged below even expected mechanical throughputs (Re: G15 Keyboard). 0.15 seconds is roughly the minimum latency one can expect in a "perfect" setting. The simulation assumes 0.05 to 0.15 average. Meaning, beyond underestimated mechanical latency, the simulation doesn't even support human or UI (FPS -- worse in some raid settings) latency.

Can you recommend a more reasonable value? Every time I push up the lag input too high the stopcasting-maestros chew me out.

Also, the simulation uses 6.0 second SW: D.

It uses a 6sec SWD if you specify a 2.1.0 patch level. By default it will use 12sec cooldown.

Asmo · 07/20/07, 6:10 AM

I don't know if it would be advisable to up latency much in your simulations, I don't think it's that unrealistic with stopcasting macros. Yes you have reaction time and various latency from your keyboard button to the server but thats why you're hitting the button early. I personally at least would also prefer if it leaned more towards optimal best case scenario than conservatively high.

For VT threat I guess the people working on omen and threatlib knows how it works exactly? I think last I heard was as someone posted above that VE healing is all counted towards the priest while VT manaregen threat is attributed to each person. So in that case 5% of your damage causing a half point of threat extra? i.e. fairly negligible. Would be nice with confirmation once and for all though.

◊ castille · 07/20/07, 12:04 PM

VT counting as threat for the person gaining mana is a relic from when they changed Blessing of Wisdom. It's not like that, VT threat is attributed to the person giving it -- in this case, it's attributed to the shadow priest, because he's providing mana. However, the amount of threat is pretty negligible because, well, it's 5% of your DPS as mana, and all 'gains' of this count count as half threat. So, even in a mana starved group (almost every single one you're in), it counts as another 1.8% threat allowing for Salvation, or 3% if you have nothing else. Not really much to worry about at all.

Emanonevahi · 07/20/07, 1:53 PM

Okay, here is my issue maybe theres another thread I could be pointed to regarding this but I couldnt seem to find one yet.

I am a shadow priest, obviously, and I am having major threat issues.
I have about 965 shadow damage unbuffed, 17% hit rating, and about 13% crit rating.

No matter what Tank I have been with to date I can pull aggro if I want to. When we go on raids with our guild I am really having to hold back on my DPS to not pull aggro from our tanks. I dont have exact numbers but the tanks are pulling around 700-800 Threat Per Second. I have improved fade and cast it every 24 seconds. Lets say on Gruul for example, I end up sitting about 5k threat below the OT because I dont want to be getting hit, and dont want to pull aggro. I am about 10k below the MT. I end up sitting around here and there for 5-10 seconds waiting for a fade cooldown just so I can start up my DPS again.

This is putting me in a position where I cant just let loose with my DPS where I feel I should be able to. I use all my spells in my rotation including SW

in which I have been reading might be a good place to start lowering my TPS. I just dont see why I should not cast a spell that can crit for 3000 once every 12 seconds... Average around 1500. Mages can cast a frost bolt and crit for that and more consistently and are way below my TPS. Are our tanks just not producing enough TPS? Or am I missing something about my threat issues? I do use VE and VT continually and I think its something that is needed.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Caligula · 07/20/07, 2:08 PM

1) Are you using Salvation? Even if you only have a single paladin in the raid this should be your pally buff.

2) Imp fade is worthless as it is not a permanent threat reduction. It is also a waste of a GCD. Drop this talent for something more useful and stop using it every CD. It's only really good on fights with a lot of adds or one with many aggro resets/drops (Tidewalker, Leo the Blind, etc.). Again, fade is a temporary drop of something like ~1k threat.

3) You can dps to 130% of your tanks threat until you pull aggro. On Gruul you do not have to be below the 2nd tank unless you are standing in melee range, which you should never be doing.

4) If threat is still an issue (it shouldn't be if your tank is generating proper threat), drop VE and make sure your healers pick up the slack.

Dyslexicmonkey · 07/20/07, 2:13 PM

Emanonevahi-

First off, get rid of improved fade. It's only a temporary aggro dump, and it's not worth 2 talent points.

As for Gruul, since you're ranged, you can go above the OT. Only the melee have to worry about staying below him. Since you're still 10k below the MT, keep pushing the damage. If you're still having threat issues, then start to back off on your big spells starting with SW:Death first, then mind blast. A simple VT/SW:P/Flay rotation should provide a good amount of dps, and hopefully you shouldn't even be able to pass your tanks when using something like that. If that still doesn't help, politely ask your tanks to generate more threat (good luck with that!).

As a side note, your spec and gem selection needs work. For the gem selection, just use +dmg gems in your FSW set...you're way above 76 hit rating as is. Once you hit 76 hit rating, then all you need to focus on is more damage. As for your spec, I'd like to imagine that you're going to run into a lot of mana issues unless you have druids that love you (even with chain-chugging mana pots). Make certain to drop improved fade, get rid of shadow resilience (unless you really love to do pvp), and move more points into discipline. A cookie-cutter 14/0/47 build works fine for quite a few of us. I personally use this build for PvE raids. There are plenty of other builds out there that work as well, but it just will all depend on personal preference, whether there's another shadow priest in the raid with you (which is why I'm only 4/5 shadow weaving), etc.

Thezilch · 07/20/07, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Can you recommend a more reasonable value? Every time I push up the lag input too high the stopcasting-maestros chew me out.

Using a G15 keyboard, I haven't been able to use a latency / stopcast macro less than 0.16 seconds (average) apart. I believe Manly <Elitist Jerks> has had the same experience. Effectively, I've not been able to /stopcast with less than spellcast_time + 0.16 and have 100% uninterrupted casts. This is using a mechanical device, which is bound to average better than human error, even assuming the device is adding some latency to the process.

If I read right, the latency, in the simulation, averages between 0.05 and 0.15. The maximum alone is below my minimum experience. Mileage may vary of course, if others have shown better /stopcast deltas. I'd love to see and hear more about the circumstances.

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

It uses a 6sec SWD if you specify a 2.1.0 patch level. By default it will use 12sec cooldown.

Sorry about this. I browsed -- apparently too hastily -- through the latest CVS and only found the SW: D at 12sec. Are the matrices on SimulationCraft/Scaling/Priest using a 12sec SW: D sim? The results struck me as best-case for my pre-2.1 sims, and didn't think to look further for consideration to the 2.1 changes elsewhere in the source.

dedmonwakeen · 07/20/07, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Thezilch

Using a G15 keyboard, I haven't been able to use a latency / stopcast macro less than 0.16 seconds (average) apart. I believe Manly <Elitist Jerks> has had the same experience. Effectively, I've not been able to /stopcast with less than spellcast_time + 0.16 and have 100% uninterrupted casts. This is using a mechanical device, which is bound to average better than human error, even assuming the device is adding some latency to the process.

If I read right, the latency, in the simulation, averages between 0.05 and 0.15. The maximum alone is below my minimum experience. Mileage may vary of course, if others have shown better /stopcast deltas. I'd love to see and hear more about the circumstances.

Thanks for the detailed info. I'll up the latency value to 0.2 (resulting in a swing from 0.15 to 0.25).

Are the matrices on SimulationCraft/Scaling/Priest using a 12sec SW: D sim? The results struck me as best-case for my pre-2.1 sims, and didn't think to look further for consideration to the 2.1 changes elsewhere in the source.

Yeah... 12sec cooldown. But I also have a nice supporting cast for CoS/ISB......

tedv · 07/20/07, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Emanonevahi

This is putting me in a position where I cant just let loose with my DPS where I feel I should be able to. I use all my spells in my rotation including SW

in which I have been reading might be a good place to start lowering my TPS. I just dont see why I should not cast a spell that can crit for 3000 once every 12 seconds... Average around 1500. Mages can cast a frost bolt and crit for that and more consistently and are way below my TPS. Are our tanks just not producing enough TPS? Or am I missing something about my threat issues? I do use VE and VT continually and I think its something that is needed.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

In addition to the other suggestions, take Shadow Word: Death out of your rotation. You shouldn't use in every cooldown without Embrace up, and it essentially has a +50% threat component if you include the healing from the extra damage incurred.

If you are getting salvation and still pulling aggro, then I'd suspect your tanks aren't maximizing their threat generation. Perhaps post a WWS so we could take a look at it?

Emanonevahi · 07/20/07, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

1) Are you using Salvation? Even if you only have a single paladin in the raid this should be your pally buff.

2) Imp fade is worthless as it is not a permanent threat reduction. It is also a waste of a GCD. Drop this talent for something more useful and stop using it every CD. It's only really good on fights with a lot of adds or one with many aggro resets/drops (Tidewalker, Leo the Blind, etc.). Again, fade is a temporary drop of something like ~1k threat.

3) You can dps to 130% of your tanks threat until you pull aggro. On Gruul you do not have to be below the 2nd tank unless you are standing in melee range, which you should never be doing.

4) If threat is still an issue (it shouldn't be if your tank is generating proper threat), drop VE and make sure your healers pick up the slack.

Thanks for the Great help everyone, I really appreciate the tips.

Yes, my gems do suck, they were gems i put on before my hit rating got so high. Im only at 7.61% though. Plus talents = 17.61% and should be at 17% right? So I am not that far over. I can lose a few points though. Just waiting to afford +9dmg gems.

I will look into my spec a little more I guess.

Here is the WWS from our last Gruuls Lair run. (no, we havnt killed him yet.)
Wow Web Stats

I guess I can go over the tank even for aggro on gruul, but on other bosses this really wouldnt help. I have to get back to work, will post more later.

tedv · 07/20/07, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Emanonevahi

Here is the WWS from our last Gruuls Lair run. (no, we havnt killed him yet.)
Wow Web Stats

Looking at your tank in the fourth Gruul attempt, he really needs to work on threat generation: Caillou - WWS

In almost 4 minutes, he has 12 Shield Slams, 10 Revenge, and 15 Shield Blocks refreshes. His talents seem a bit odd too. He doesn't use Heroic strike once but has 3/3 Imp Heroic Strike, at the cost of 0/3 Improved Defensive Stance.

Contrast this with Paches from an EJ kill which also took slightly under 4 minutes: Paches - WWS

In the same time, Paches did 21 Shield Slams, 17 Revenge, and 27 Shield Blocks. Oh, and he also did 65 Heroic Strikes.

PS: Your tanks also need amplify magic.

◊ castille · 07/20/07, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Emanonevahi

TIm only at 7.61% though. Plus talents = 17.61% and should be at 17% right? So I am not that far over.

You want to be at 16% because of the unavoidable 1% miss rate. Might as well make a 1% miss rate a 1% miss rate constantly.

Emanonevahi · 07/20/07, 7:10 PM

Thanks again for all the help guys. I have looked over the WWS from both players more in depth. I was able to pull some pretty useful information about this. It really helped having another tank to be able to compare to.

Paches amazing 154 abilites used during the timeframe Vs Caillous 54 abilities.

Ive posted a bunch of this up for my guild, boy can I see one mad tank when he reads all this. No tank likes to hear hes doing a bad job eh...

Is anyone interested in looking at my WWS from Maybe that same fight, Gruul #4 and Maulgar (kill) and see if they see a problem with what I am doing? I am already going to go look at my spec and fix the issues there. Thanks a ton for the information about Fade. I had no clue it was only a temporary threat reduction... I thought I was losing the 1-2k threat every time I used it :P

Next I will look for some tanking rotations for him to review...

◊ castille · 07/20/07, 7:13 PM

Man, I think I'd have /cast Fade tied into a macro for every spell I cast if it did that and just learn to hit every key twice.. I'm exaggerating, but some permanent threat reduction would be neat.

I'm sure if you post a link, a few of us can offer helpful tips.

Emanonevahi · 07/20/07, 7:31 PM

Here is me for our Maulgar Kill Emanonevahi - WWS

Here is me on our Highest dmg Gruul attempt
Emanonevahi - WWS

Another question I would like to hit on would be the points spent in the disc tree. From what I can see it looks like the reason you would go into that tree would mostly be for Meditation and Inner Focus.

Inner Focus: Seems it would be best used on Mind Blast for the increased crit. So you save yourself 450 mana every 3 minutes. Is that worth the talent point?

Meditation: 15% regen continued while casting. I have 140 base regen so that would be 21mp/5 while casting. Does that really help me? I dont mind using a mana pot here and there. No, between my shadow fiend, VT, and a mana pot I don't really run out of mana. 21 mp/5 casting would be 252mana/min. Thats 756mana/ mins. You guys mean to tell me that 1260 mana makes or breaks you? Thats only 2 spells.So be it, 2 more spells but...

So in theory you are spending 14 talent points to save yourself 1206 mana every 3 minutes right? I am not new to the game, or to being a shadow priest. I am probably wrong here but is 14 talent points worth 1206mana/3mins? Sure, increase wand damage is nice, but you shouldnt be shooting your wand at shit, you should be shooting spells. Martyrdom is cool, but seems more useful in solo or PvP. Im shield helps a lil, and so does imp fort. But I have holy priests for buffs.

Id would really love to see your guy's spin on all this. Thanks again in advance. I am really just trying to be an elitist. Thats why im here. You guys really seem to know your stuff.

◊ castille · 07/20/07, 7:40 PM

I actually usually save Inner Focus for SWP refreshes. Now and hten, when I'm trying to inflate my e-peen in WWS, I'll use it on MB, but I prefer longevity to still leaving things up to chance. At my crit level, MB is a 50% crit with IF up.

When fights go for 10 minutes, and you get your threat levels all good and well, you can begin using more mana intensive damage cycles involving SWD/MB that will make that extra mana much better. Also, as gear improves, there seems to be more spirit going around, making meditation better than it is. Plus, once you get above, say, 45 points in shadow, there really isn't much that adds to DPS in the shadow tree, so there's really no reason to go terribly heavy (0/0/61) into shadow. There's no real coincidence that PvE-focused shadow priests are almost always 14/0/47.

Emanonevahi · 07/20/07, 8:52 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Looking at your tank in the fourth Gruul attempt, he really needs to work on threat generation: Caillou - WWS

In almost 4 minutes, he has 12 Shield Slams, 10 Revenge, and 15 Shield Blocks refreshes. His talents seem a bit odd too. He doesn't use Heroic strike once but has 3/3 Imp Heroic Strike, at the cost of 0/3 Improved Defensive Stance.

Contrast this with Paches from an EJ kill which also took slightly under 4 minutes: Paches - WWS

In the same time, Paches did 21 Shield Slams, 17 Revenge, and 27 Shield Blocks. Oh, and he also did 65 Heroic Strikes.

PS: Your tanks also need amplify magic.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WWS LINK!!!

I was unable to find much information on tanking rotations very easy. So I popped up Paches combat log from the fight, and scrolled through several minutes of getting the order he used his abilities. I Then summarized a base rotation and posted it up for our tank. I really cant believe he wasnt using Heroic Strike AT ALL...

◊ castille · 07/20/07, 9:00 PM

Worried about TPS? I suggest [Warrior] Sustained TPS / WWSed