This is a follow up to this post with some statistics to back it up.
So this week I have been trying an alternative build to cookie-cutter combat swords, namely 11/28/22. I expected that I would see a slight reduction in dps due to the loss of combat potency even though I picked up serrated blades. The results I got were a surprise; I did not expect such a small delta (and circumstantially a dps increase if you incorporate the additional raid dps from the Hemo debuff):
(edit: note that on Gruul the combat WWS logs I had Leader of the Pack, but did not have the buff for the hemo WWS logs)
I do not find it hard to believe that Serrated blades scales better than the bottom half of the combat tree as it is a raw % dps increase on all attacks as well as a large dps increase to rupture vs combat potency and surprise attacks only affecting sinister strike which is a relatively small chunk of total dps for a rogue. Even on gruul if you add 300 extra damage per hemo hit, you come out on top on total damage (as well as having increased threat for the tank). I am curious to know the exact point at which it is better for a rogue to spec into sublety instead of 41+ points combat.
In conclusion, yes hemo is a viable spec for a pve raiding rogue and it does allow you to put points into some juicy "non-pve" abilities while maintaining dps equivalent to combat pve. I have to say that I would have a hard time going back to combat now that I have prep/MoD/Camo in a competitive pve build. I posted this information here to get a double-check on my statistics, so please tear apart my assumptions and prove me wrong/right.
A Note on my Spec: Opportunity would give me a small dps increase on my three garrotes that I can use per encounter if you were truly min/max'ing this pve spec. I believe that preparation brings a lot to the table in terms of utility from an extra evasion, sprint and vanish when you are learning encounters as opposed to one point in lethality.
[edit:] Post #10 below outlines the math behind this build
Last edited by Ichichop : 07/25/07 at 4:46 PM.
Reason: annotation on LOTP presence in combat logs
Interesting data but I supose more tests are needed before you can draw any big conlusions from it. If further tests show that your initial thoughts are correct I wouldnt call it anything else then a major breakthrough in the history of rogue builds! Keep up the work dude...
Did nothing change in your groups and buffs between those kills? To begin to convince me you would need 5+ sets for each setup and then a trend might emerge. Certainly another thing to consider is what gear you have, is this only effective for rogues with insane gear, does it start to lag with gear increases? Also as a side note, why do you have 2/3 setup over 2/5 lethality?
EDIT: Nevermind about the setup... Should not post as 3am.
Extremely interesting. Rupture being the bread and butter raid finisher and hemo's debuff make this... quite peculiar. Certainly worthy of taking a shot at myself. I think i'll switch to this build and report my findings in a week or so. Hmm trading AR, SA, CP(this one hurts)lethality and 4 points in vile poisons... for camo, MoD, GS, imp. sap and mad unmitigated bleed damage. This could be the sword/fist/mace partner to mutilate as the definitive raid/pvp hybrid build.... Although I could see this running into a brick wall against bleed immune mobs.
And Koosai, the build has absolutely no room to get more than 1 point of lethality, and you would have to trade Prep for it.
Very interesting conclusion, if this can be expanded upon and confirmed I would definitely consider breaking my vow of never touching the subtlety tree.
Just throwing this out there, would 4 points in deadliness make enough difference to justify losing sword spec and weapon expertise? I suppose 5 points if you think 2% ap > blade flurry.
Well Sword spec is pretty much a raw 5% extra damage, so I would doubt it
Originally Posted by Koosai
Did nothing change in your groups and buffs between those kills?
I did upgrade from Signet of the Master Assassin to Ring of Lethality.
Oh yeah I'm sorry, and I did get LOTP for the Combat WWS logs, but we had three rogues the next week so I had no LOTP buff for the Hemo combat logs! (yet it still beat out the combat dps...)
Originally Posted by Koosai
Also as a side note, why do you have 2/3 setup over 2/5 lethality?
I have 2/3 setup to reach Serrated Blades. You could keep 2/2 SS, skip Hemo/Prep and take 5/5 lethality but if you are so far into the sublety tree that it is hard for me not to take 5 more points and put them into Hemo. Is 5/5 lethality and SS better than taking hemo? I do not know.
Math is coming... I just need to look up some equations. I can also only get one sample per week, so bear with me.
10000 armor = 48.644% DR = 51.356% of your damage hits
10000 - 560 = 9440 = 47.206% DR = 52.7941% of your damage hits
means 2.800% more damage
5000 armor = 32.1388% DR = 67.8612% of your damage hits
5000 - 560 = 4440 = 29.605% = 70.395% of your damage hits
means 3.734% more damage
560 armor = 5.0371% DR = 94.9629% of your damage hits
560 - 560 = 0 = 0% DR = 0% of your damage hits
means 5.3% more damage
So we gain up to 5.3% more damage from serrated blades on all attacks. This gives more value to items like WarpSpring Coil and the T6 items with -armor value that will put you closer to zero armor on boss fights. The bottom half of the combat tree adds nothing to white damage besides 2% extra agility, so this is a pure damage increase against combat on white damage.
If you assume that 60% of a a combat rogue's damage is white damage, then hemo has up to a 3.18% total damage increase versus combat based on white damage (math: 0.6*0.053). From the combat gruul attempt I pulled 1080 dps with 59% of it being white damage, or 638 white dps. Serrated blades can give up to a net 33.8 dps increase on this white damage. On bosses with high armor values this dps increase will slightly diminish, as you can see from the above calculations.
The question is then how much damage do you lose on specials?
If you just spammed SS or hemo, you would get these results:
SS every 4 seconds or Hemo every 3.5 seconds:
Non-crit, my hemo averages for 553, SS averages for 660 on the two morogrim samples. Therefore SS is 165 dps and Hemo is 158 dps (6 dps loss). This calculation includes the armor reduction from serrated blades due to taking average damage from the actual fight. The real difference in hemo vs combat specials must therefore be combat potency.
Combat potency generated an extra 1,410 energy over 8:44, or equivalent to an extra 5.38 energy per tick. This changes SS to every 3.15 seconds bumping it up to 209dps. Hemo now loses 51 dps compared to combat.
Now we take into effect the hemo debuff in raids, where it will be fully utilized, therefore adding 300 damage every 3.5 seconds. We will trivialize this computation by ignoring the extra damage from criticals and abilities with damage multipliers like backstab. This brings hemo up another 85 dps, or 34 dps above sinister strike with combat potency.
Lethality will push sinister strike up close to hemo in terms of relative dps, but we have basically proven that hemo beats out combat on both white damage and beats or ties it on specials damage [if you include the additional raid utility]. We have not even gone into additional rupture damage with a 5r/1s cycle or the use of ghostly strike to increase special attack dps.
--In regards to dropping the assassination tree to go deeper in combat--
Originally Posted by Itzelsnitch
One thing you would have to concider when choosing between 1x/4x and 0/x/x is, that you lose relentles strikes. A 1s/5r cycle uses 6 combo points every 16 seconds, which means that relentles returns 25*6*0.2/16 = 1.875 energy/second.
Assuming 20% avoidance on boss, and 4 points in CP, and a 1.4 speed weapon with SnD and 1 mongoose up, you would gain 12 * 1.3 * 1.02 * 20% * 80% / 1.4 ~= 1.8 energy/sec.
RL is basicly just as good as 4/5 CP, so the choice lies between weapon specs, bladeflurry, and deadlines. CP isn't really an option, seeing how much you lose.
Relentless strikes and ruthlessness are equivalent to 4/5 CP, so you are basically giving up 5% crit and on all your attacks and 2% extra damage to most bosses to get Adrenaline Rush which is a lackluster raiding talent:
I view AR as just an extra 3.5 Sinister Strikes as that is all that the extra energy provides you. In my case, since I have around 25% crit you can calculate exactly how much extra damage this is:
75% normal hit (660 avg) 25% crit hit (1600 avg) = ( 3 * 660 + 1600 ) / 4 = 895 average hit
895 * 3.5 = 3132.5 extra damage from AR, or approximately 3 seconds of "free" dps. This is rather inconsequential if the fight goes on for much longer than 60 seconds. On short fights you have to take into effect that hemo provides slightly better burst than deep combat due to the nature of the better CP building from 35 energy combo points.
If you have prep and AR you can probably AR three times on a normal boss fight. This is an extra 10k damage but you are giving up 2% damage and 5% crit which on a fight where you are doing 500-600k damage I can hardly justify as a 'win'.
--Weapon Expertise Analysis--
Each point in a weapon skill lowers the chance that an opponent will dodge/miss/parry/block your attacks by 0.04% each. Therefore 10 weapon skill gives us 0.4% less dodge/miss/parry/block. Against monsters that are facing you this means that you will hit 1.2% more and be blocked 0.4% less. Against monsters that have their backs to you this means a 0.8% increase in "hit" with 0.4% of that coming from less dodges which is not mitigatable in any other way.
"The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level. " This comes from the 2.0.1 patch notes, so 10 weapon skill also gives the player 1% extra crit on boss fights.
In conclusion, 2 points in the talent appears to yield on boss fights 0.8% hit (0.4% of which you can not make up in hit rating) and 1% crit. Two points in weapon expertise has one of the largest 'bang per buck' of any raiding of any talent, rivaling Malice and Precision (which are undisputed as "must have" raiding talents).
I hope that the (albeit rough) theorycraft here helps to back up the statistical evidence first put forth in the post. I will try to post more examples of hemo dps and combat dps using the same gear and in the same group, and I ask that other rogues please do the same. One other item to note is that the effectiveness of a hemo rogue goes down if there are two in the raid, as their debuffs do not stack. The second hemo rogue loses 85 dps, though I still believe that they will be effective dps. In conclusion, you can now only say "lolol hemo rogue" if they are using daggers, otherwise you might find yourself in the uncomfortable position underneath them on the damage meters.
--Questions that I have still--
1) Is ghostly strike efficient dps? It has the nasty side effect of using 40 energy even if it is dodge/miss/parried, so you must include this in your calculations.
2) What is the best energy cycle for this hemo build? Is losing a few seconds of slice and dice uptime acceptable in order to keep 5 point ruputures active the entire fight?
3) When does it make sense to switch over to a hemo build? I'm guessing that obtaining a DST has a large part to do with this, as it boosts your white damage to a higher % of your total dps. Maintaining hit cap is also a large component.
Last edited by Ichichop : 07/18/07 at 8:10 PM.
Reason: Adding in more information from thread
I raided for a long time as 11/21/29 spec with blacksmith mace. Now running as a 18/43 combat mace spec. I counted on around a 100 dps diffrence between the specs but I so miss all the utility of a prep/hemo spec. I need to do some math if the extra points in combat is worth it even for a mace user with a hemo build.
This is interesting. I don't have a Dragonspine (it's never dropped for our guild since we've started farming him) but I am very close to the hit cap. I'll respec for the farm runs on Wednesday and show my findings there.
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
I'm a little interested to see how this works out as well. I've been thinking of having our rogue with Syphon of the Nathrizem and Swiftsteel Bludgeon go Hemo as the 2.8 speed is great for the unnormalized attack.
One thing I worry about with a 25man raid is whether or not the 30 Hemo charges can be eaten up in 3.5 seconds, and again about the times where they are wasted on slight in and out fights and back to back Hemos.
With 2-3 Rogues, a DPS warrior, Enhc Shammy, the tank and assuming a Feral Druid or 2 are we going to use 30 charges up in the 3.5 seconds between Hemos? It looks like that would probably eat them all, however it would be close depending on instant use.
Another thing which bothers me a little bit is the lowered effects of Heroism/Bloodlust, Drums of Battle, and other haste mechanics. A large part of these spell's DPS increase for Combat Rogues is the increased CP procs and thus more yellow damage.
It should be interesting to see how this could work out for the raid, testing of other melee DPS compared to non-hemo debuff would have to take place as well.
I guess the kicker will be in the details of actual raid experiences. Oh and one more thing, the lack of AR needs to be taken into account here, as it is a serious amount of burst damage in short fights. (Hi epic trash-mob Akama!)
Also, Ichichop, your hit rating is (to me atleast) rather low. I think that CP will show marked gains with a hit rating much higher, say 275-308.
I know also all of the SS vs. Hemo comparisons that I read previously have indicated that there was a "magic" AP that upon reaching it Hemo would win out for certain weapon speeds perhaps this is also a factor?