McTurok

Kalman, that is why this thread was started, no? To see if it was at all viable. This is why many are now trying it out on their own in their 25 man raids with different gear and different raid class makeup.

How else are we going to get data to prove if it's a good idea or not? I see numerous WWS links of players sharing their results. Time will only tell. I'm all for trying new builds in PvE. It's part of what makes this game fun.

As for the "utility" comment, I should have said a buff to melee.

 

◊ Kalman

*Very* arguable, given that combat will be benefiting from extra CP procs due to the bonus haste.

 

Ichichop

Corrode, the fact that haste benefits serrated blades more than CP is one of the foundations of the viability of this build. I will try to pound out the math for it later, but someone else had this same premise and then later investigated and found that something like 90% of the extra damage from a haste bonus comes from white damage, not CP.

Please try to read the thread before arguing against the build's viability.

/wave fsb

 

Tinuva

I thing I like to say, though already proven. Is that any buff you get in the raid that give AP boost this spec even more than it boost a combat specced rogue.

I can see this especially when we swap in a fury warrior with a bm hunter or so in the group. Sure the BM hunter buff is very nice too, but that AP from the warrior is just amazing the difference it makes.

Tonight I played for the first time with a good combat rogue and I could see where we are almost doing the same damage out in the raid. Though our weapons are not comparable and only me has a DST.

For pvp this build is not your wack and hope you kill. However doing a CS->hemo/shiv/->rupture then sprint+vanish repeat is quite effective against a warrior solo.

Arena its GG you go out of your way to interupt the oppposing team healer or kill a fire mage.

I am going to await your final result though, been keeping an eye on this thread since page 1 started and enjoying every bit of theorycraft around this build, even though I skipped out on ghostly strike. Maybe a bad idea but getting combo points from dodge is kinda cool, was wondering if I should walk infront of trash that cleave with evasion on and steal some extra combo points to boost damage out on trash.

I am not sure if there is any boss where the adds do a cleave where one could abuse this, bud doing BF + Evasion on an add on Tidewalker is a nice steal for 1-2 free combo points while the AErs do their thing on the adds is fun too.

Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

Gogge

Yes, I even did a ctrl+f and searched for "log" on every page in the thread but couldn't find any combat log links. Did you bother to read my first post in this thread? I even apologized beforehand if I missed it.

How hard is it for someone to post a log?

 

Ticia

Try searching for 'Wow Web Stats' instead of 'log'. There are numerous logs posted in this thread, almost all are links to Lossendil's page in the form "Wow Web Stats" or something like that.

Edit: The post directly below the one you quoted has a log in it, eyes ftw.

 

Ichichop

Well no, there are no combatlog.txt files posted here only WWS links. I can share out some of mine to you privately if you are interested, PM me your email and I will send you a tidewalker log.

/wave fsb

 

gakutomagnum

About as glaring as Mutilate not being added to Bonescythe before BC came out with that last patch before BC that added all the new 41pt talents.

 

Zaniel

It happens. It also likely won't get fixed, which is regrettable.

 

Maurice2u

Quite unfortunate. There are several items/talents that don't include Hemo, but include SS and/or Backstab, and that's either oversight or some really good math by a Blizz guy somewhere that knows what that magic "inflection point" in stats is that we are searching out here.

My gut tells me neglect, but I could be wrong.

Far as my take on what we've looked at so far:

The "utility" tem. This build can very well be looked at as added utility, and this is how.

At the very point where the 11/28/22 rogue does ~80DPS less than the standard Combat build equivalent, but is able to add that 80DPS back to othe raid via others, it reduces his threat generation and spreads it out over multiple members. IE: Better for tank, better for raid. That could be considered utility added. Reduced threat from a main DPS class.

From that point on, if this build's ratio of DPS vs standard combat continues to go up in this Hemo build's favor, it becomes a "buff" and "utility" as it adds DPS while having at least 80DPS of it not directly contribute to the rogues individual threat. Enough of that, it's semantics really.

With all that said, we have not clearly defined the exact point wherein (if at all):

A) The gear/stats/raid-makeup allow this build to be within 80DPS of the exact same character spec'd standard Combat

B) The variability of Boss types (bleed immunity) is enough to overwhelm the Hemo-charge/Rupture vs Evis./Serrated blades benefits. 2 of the 3 being mob type irrelevant makes this a harder question than first glance.


What we "do" know so far is that

A) Serrated Blades scales better than Combat Potency, both with gear/stats and with Haste.

B) Starting somewhere around Kara gear, the right team makeup "will" allow 11/28/22 to perform on par with standard Combat. (see posted WWS)

As we progress further down the subject with more and more data, it will simply be about finding the exact stats required. There will likely have to be some caviats of minimum stats for viability "with all charges of Hemo used" vs just on it's own. What we can safely say already though, is for people who want to use it, they should feel free to do so without fear of being horribly gimped (and may even come out better depending on gear/team).

Our gathered data and calculations have essentially green-lighted this for test by the individual user. If it works for your gear/team/fun, continue to use it. If it doesn't, that's ok too. What we don't need is blanket disregard w/o testing, or attempts to discourage people from trying to learn and do more. That's just about as useful as someone on the paladin tanking thread posting "paladin R healz, end o' thread".

 

Tinuva

Here is a log of our raiding last night:

Wow Web Stats

Eshara is me: 11/28/22 with 1656ap 245hit rating 22.9% crit
Mostly Kara gear and where I dont have kara gear I have gear from heroic badges or exalted rewards, with DST and the 2 merciless glad swords.

Rodrigues: 19/42 specced combat/maces rogue without DST 290 hit rating somewhere in the 1600ap

Slashkill: I think 15/41/5 combat/daggers without DST 230 hit rating also close to 1600ap

Not sure if this is a good comparison but hopefully it will help a little.

Group composition did change, our 1st attempt on hydross I had a fury war in our group, but he was taken out for another healer for the later 2 attempts. He was back though for Tidewalker.

The whole night we did have a Enh shaman in our group though and sometimes on trash a hunter or feral druid but trash dont really count.

I still think any AP buff buffs me more than anything else with this spec as it just scales insanely well with AP, or maybe because I am missing the sweet spot of 1800ap unbuffed.

Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

◊ Kalman

Yes. And there's a world of difference between "seeing if it's viable" and jumping on people for expressing doubt. Stop doing the latter. People asking "Why are people so certain this is viable?" when the evidence is anything *but* certain is a perfectly reasonable question.

I have read the thread. I've seen people posting terrible math, I've seen people using faulty logic, and I've seen people generally behaving like posters from the official WoW forums.

Please try to stop doing it.

Yes. Most of the bonus from haste is in white damage rather than CP. Of course, combat vs. PvE hemo, how much is that 90% white-based going to gain from Serrated Blades? Is it enough to make up for the bonus damage from CP? Assuming the best possible case (going from 560 to 0 armor via SB), SB is adding ~5% to your white damage (going from a ~5% damage reduction to a 0% damage reduction).

Assuming the 90/10 split for how much of total bonus damage from a given amount of haste is white/CP based is accurate for a combat build:

Combat gains: .9 (white) + .1 (CP) = 1.0 - this is our control sample.
SB gains: .9/.95 = 0.947

Gee. That looks an *awful* lot like haste scaling CP better than SB, in the BEST possible situation, using your numbers. And I did that in about 10 seconds.

Again: I'm not saying the build is bad. I'm saying that I, and others, have very real doubts about some of the claims made here, and that expressing those doubts is in no way a bad thing.

edit: Not to mention, while you've repeatedly claimed "the large part of the bonus is from white damage, not CP-based damage", you've produced no evidence, mathematical or practical, that I can find. While I would tend to believe it to be true for a number of reasons, if you're going to repeatedly say this, provide the evidence (or a link to it.)

 

McTurok

Why don't you go back and re-read those posters I quoted and then ak yourself again who was being "reasonable".

If you think that is expressing doubt and reasonable, you are just as big of an ass as Andeh. His post was nothing but a trolling attempt.

If you have a problem with my posts, report me to a Forum Admin and they can deal with it.

 

Rinced

Just tried this spec and I was amazed.
My cycles where much cleaner (no CP takes out random factors) and +1 vanish is a huge advantage in aggro fights (and adds more survivability on wipes ).

We're currently raiding without a feral druid and I was wondering wether this build is still viable without mangle. I haven't seen a big difference.

As already said the main factor of this build is serrated blade wich increases the white DPS, hemo is needed to compensate the lack of CP to maintain your cycles.

I suppose the 90/10 split is not a static value and scaling aswell (white gets advantage with higher stats), what makes the whole thing a bit more difficult.

 

Gogge

Done, I doubt it'll show anything special but It'll satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks.

 

dfinberg

I was thinking that spreading DPS from the rogue across the raid might not be such a great idea (since rogues have vanish while DPS warriors get soulstones), but on second thought with your MT having a fast weapon he's probably going to be picking up as many hemo charges as anyone else, so the net effect on aggro should be pretty neutral.

1 year old twins means no WoW for me. But you just wait, as soon as they get a little older it will be my own stable of gold farmers.

 

Kagekami

I don't think we considered this while theorycrafting over this spec.

The maintank will probably have lots of aggro multipliers (def stance, defiance) and the dpsers will have them as well, only the other way (zerk stance, rogue 0.71, salvation).

That means that the threat increase that the maintank gets from hitting and devastating on a hemo debuffed target is larger than the increase that the physical dps will get.

This would in turn mean that this spec when used by the most geared/highest aggro rogue may* not only reduce his personal threat while causing comparable damage thanks to the debuff, but it would also increase the tanks threat in relation to the rest of the raid.

I would actually call that "raid utility".

Now we just have to find out if it's enough of an increase to actually be worth considering, or if it's just a "meh" increase.

* Used "may" as Kalman pointed out that this has not yet been proven fully and set in stone. The ball is still in the air on whether their personal dps goes down a lot or at all, especially when taking gear into consideration.

 

Oscarvil

I think that Kalman has a point. There hasn't been any conclusive math showing that this build scales better than a CP build and some skepticism is warranted before touting this as the holy grail of high-end builds.

On to the anecdotal evidence. I specced 11/28/22 last weekend but have only been to a few raids since. For 10mans I've found it's fine. I manage to keep up with the rogue I usually compete with as well with this build as I do with combat swords(19/42/0). No logs so you'll just have to take my word for it.

For 25mans I think this build does as well as my combat build, but my crits are a bit lower than I am used to, I also miss the streaky burst damage you get when CP procs 3 or 4 times in a row but these aren't necessarily bad things. My gear is mostly kara gear. Here are some logs of the raids I have done recently.

Gruul
Sinister strike

Hemo
Hemo

Void Reaver
Sinister Strike

Hemo

Magtheridon
Sinister Strike

Hemo

Ignoring total dps which can fluctuate by quite a bit week to week with no changes to group or gear, I see the average white damage is increased on both VR and Gruul, but surprisingly not on Magtheridon which is contrary to what I expected. I can't really explain why this is the case. I was a cube clicker in the hemo log but this shouldn't affect the average autoattack damage I do, though it in theory should alter my ratio of yellow to white damage.

For VR even without the bonus to rupture damage I came out over the previous week, however due to LotP i gained ~17k damage in crits bringing the margin between the two fights closer. Saying that my damage is still ~75% white in that fight, compared to 67% in the previous fight which makes up for lost damage from Hemo and Eviscerate. Yes I am aware of too many parries in both of those logs. There was a gear difference between the two fights, in the hemo fight I was wearing my +arcane resist trinket (some use that was >.< ) instead of my poison vial.

Gruul shows better the variation week to week of the dps for the same fight with the same spec and gear (the 2 hemo logs). It also shows the hemo build perform as well if not better (my first 1000dps on gruul ever) than my sinister strike build.

I hope some people find these useful, and if anyone can glean some info from these logs that I've missed (posting on forums late at night >.< ) please enlighten me (-:

 

• Vulajin

I think people are wildly overstating the benefits of Serrated Blades relative to Aggression, Combat Potency, Lethality, and Surprise Attacks combined. As Kalman mentioned, at its very best, Serrated Blades is a flat 5% white damage/Eviscerate buff (if it reduces the mob from exactly 560 armor to 0).

There are some lacking analyses of the energy-based damage components in this thread. First, let's start with what we know from earlier in this thread: using the formula on page 2, we find that with a Talon of Azshara (the slowest and highest DPS weapon I could find), counting Serrated Blades (assuming the highest possible increase in damage, 5%), Surprise Attacks, and Aggression, we would need 4591.9 AP for Hemo to match Sinister Strike in DPE.

On top of that, one needs to consider exactly what cycle one is using. With Hemo, your cycle is essentially fixed at either 1s/5r, 2s/5r, or 3s/5r. Let's look at each of these (assuming in all cases 3/3 Imp SnD and at least 2/5 Netherblade):

1s/5r: needs 6 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 4.8 * 35 = 168 energy, 1s = 20 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 188; Cycle time - 18.8s; SnD uptime - 92.55%; Rupture uptime - 85.11%; Rupture factor - 110.64%; Hemo charges - 144 (7.66/sec)

2s/5r: needs 7 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 5.8 * 35 = 203 energy, 2s = 15 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 218; Cycle time - 21.8s; SnD uptime - 99.77%; Rupture uptime - 73.39%; Rupture factor - 95.41%; Hemo charges - 174 (7.98/sec)

3s/5r: needs 8 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 6.8 * 35 = 238 energy, 3s = 10 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 248; Cycle time - 24.8s; SnD uptime - 100%; Rupture uptime - 64.53%; Rupture factor - 83.87%; Hemo charges - 204 (8.23/sec)

Notice that the amount of Hemo charges actually available per second (and therefore the overall effect of the debuff) changes with the cycle. However, also notice that these cycles are fixed. Whether you change your gear or not, these figures stay the same. The only portion of your cycle damage which will increase with gear will be that determined by your SnD uptime; it will increase at exactly the rate of 30% of your white damage increase.

Let's assume the best-case scenario again, where the mob has exactly 560 armor (5.04% reduction). For 1s/5r, your Hemo debuff DPS will come out to approximately 72.74 before misses/crits/glances. For 2s/5r, it will be 75.79. For 3s/5r, it will be 78.11.

Now note the "Rupture factor." This indicates the amount by which your Rupture damage is increased because of Serrated Blades. I put this in for comparison, because now we're going to look at the same cycles for a standard combat build with CP and a 1.5 speed offhand. With a 1.5 speed and Slice and Dice, assuming 10% total miss and dodge (which would be fairly high for a tier 4 rogue), CP will generate 2.34 energy per second. With Slice and Dice down, it would generate 1.8 energy per second.

1s/5r: needs 6 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 4.8 * 40 = 192 energy, 1s = 20 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 212; Cycle time - 17.18s; SnD uptime - 100%; Rupture uptime - 93.13%

2s/5r: needs 7 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 5.8 * 40 = 232 energy, 2s = 15 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 247; Cycle time - 20.02s; SnD uptime - 100%; Rupture uptime - 79.94%

3s/5r: needs 8 CP, 1.2 from Ruthlessness, 6.8 * 40 = 272 energy, 3s = 10 energy, 5r = 0 energy
Total energy - 282; Cycle time - 22.85s; SnD uptime - 100%; Rupture uptime - 70.01%

Note that with CP, the Rupture uptime rapidly approaches the Hemo build's Rupture factor. Also note that, as you acquire more haste effects, the Rupture uptime for the combat cycles increases. A Hemo build running 3s/5r will spend 238 energy on Hemo. At this gear level, the combat build can spend approximately the same amount of energy on Sinister Strike, running 2s/5r with equal SnD uptime (that is, 100%). The Hemo build, despite Serrated Blades, will only deal 5% more Rupture damage than the combat build.

We've already established that, below 4600 AP, the combat build will deal much more damage with its 232 energy than the Hemo build will with its 238. Let's say that the rogue has 3000 buffed AP and 35% crit. As combat, his Sinister Strikes will deal 1396 damage (34.91 DPE), and as 11/28/22, his Hemorrhages will deal 1135 (32.43 DPE). The combat build will deal 8099 energy damage (404.55 DPS) during its 2s/5r cycle, while the Hemo build will deal 7719 (311.24 DPS). At the same time, the combat build will deal 85.91 Rupture DPS, while the Hemo build deals 90.16 DPS.

So just at this gear level, you're giving up about 85 energy DPS to gain a 5% white damage increase and around 78.11 Hemo debuff DPS. This seems friendly to Hemo until you realize that the more you gear up, the more the combat build's cycle will improve (scaling), while the Hemo build's cycle will remain exactly the same (non-scaling). Once every Hemo debuff charge is being consumed, the debuff's effectiveness only scales up with the crit rates of the people using it (basically non-scaling). Your Rupture damage will scale with about 31% of your AP, but the combat build gets 24% scaling on the same, plus better Rupture uptime.

 

BLaZeDRas

Hi,

Sorry that this is my first post with it being where it is etc (im aware to the reason why I cant make a new topic)

i was wondering, what do you think is the minimum stats needed for this 21/2x/2x to be effective? , right now im raiding in a non-pve build, although i do semi-well... 21/0/40, i dont care for maximising my DPS so to speak but im very interested in this build 21/2x/2x (i use maces so i havent checked what the actual numbers would be for me)...

right now im running 257 hit / 1669 AP (low i know for my talents ... ).. and 26-27~% crit,

any input on my situation would be nice,

Thanks

 

Axile

Alright, I finally have some wws parses for comparison.

Combat build:
Hydross
Lurker
Morogrim
Karathress

Hemo (11/28/22):
Hydross
Lurker
Morogrim
Karathress

Overall, it seems to be on par with combat. Here's my 2 cents about it all. You get a lot more perks with the hemo build. It's quite fun to run circles around ssc mobs and sap them with 5/5 mod etc. Farming wasn't as glorified, but hey, it's farming.

One thing to note about the data is that with combat, I did 1200 dps on morogrim and was tombed 2 or 3 times (can't remember exactly). With hemorage I did 1200 dps but I didn't get graved once.

With hemo threat isn't an issue. The tanks seemed to generate more threat with the debuff and if they didn't, I could vanish more than once with preparation.

My final thought is that as we progress more into the game, combat will win out with dps. My biggest hurdle with combat is threat. Once the tanks begin to get some decent drops/upgrades, the threat ceiling will lift and I'll be able to unload constantly as opposed to vanishing, catching back up to the mt, then just waiting & feinting until it's safe to dps again. That's an accurate description of what transpired during the parses as combat spec.

Axelle,
Dath'Remar

 

Rinced

I dont think you will get any real benefit out of more energy when your running 1s/5r. Mostly you will just "cut" your snd if you get more CP procs, and you will have a hole in your cycle when you lack of CP procs.
Theoretically it might scale better but practically I don't see the advantage.

 

path411

Yeah interesting, with no specializations across the board wouldn't maces be the best dps?

In reality I can see this hemo spec being a raid build for rogues who have either the blacksmith hammers or the glad hammers.

anyone do a test between combat maces and hemo raid dps?

 

• Vulajin

At the very worst, more energy means more Sinister Strikes while waiting for Rupture to tick off. At the best, more energy means you can move up to 2s/5r while maintaining similar Rupture uptime and throwing away less energy on Slice and Dice.

 

McTurok

I don't think the glad hammers are a good option. 2.80 and above are best imo.

I pretty sure all PvP weapons are 2.60.