aleyro

first; very promising. i'm nowhere near the requisite gear level, but i really enjoyed hemo pre-bc, and would like to return to it at some point. glad to hear that folks are (anecdotally?) having success with it.


one quick question, somewhat tangentical:

according to your WWS parses:

4 out of 62 eviscerates were dodged as hemo, and 0 out of 90 eviscerates as combat, and a total of 5 ruptures were dodged. interestingly, you actually had more dot ticks as hemo, inspite of the 4 dodges.

were those 8 dodges *really* that noticable? or are we dealing with selection bias here (as in, you knew it was possible for them to be dodged, so you were looking out for it more than normal?) where SnD and KS being dodged at about the same rate? if you were raiding from 01:44 to 08:03, thats just about 1 dodge per hour... i can *deftinately* live with that.

 

BLaZeDRas

i think its a natural psycological thing just to notice the dodges far more since you have specced out of the "undodgable" finishers tbh.

 

• Shifft

With the Windfury Totem nerf, I wonder how this spec's DPS relative to combat will change (if at all). I figure that you use more energy per special with hemo when you factor in combat potency, so I'd expect to see a smallish increase in the viability of this hemo spec with the latest hotfix.

 

falynx

It was probably a bit psychological. However when you're used to having finishers not be dodged and suddenly you find that you "used" a finisher but you still have 5CP...you notice it.

Our MT and RL were on vacation this week, so it wasn't a good time to test additional builds. I'll hopefully be able to get another data set posted this coming week.

 

Tinuva

When he puts it like that, I agree. Many a time I just want to rupture and see if I get a combo or need to hemo to refresh SnD, and when you see that you have 5 combo points you go 0_0 because now you have to re-adjust your cycle and hopefully not lose SnD uptime.

Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

◊ Kalman

edit:

Whoops. Hadn't read the change. My fault; I blame international travel.

I'd expect minimal actual effect; the gains for WFT aren't that different between the two specs, both benefit heavily. Hemo is cheaper, combat has more energy, in the end it was probably relatively equal numbers of attacks triggering WF. Arbitrarily, while combat probably benefited *slightly* more in terms of triggering attacks, Serrated Blades probably washes that out to even.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Kursk

I have been following this thread and the talant build 11/28/22 seems very intresting to me even that I havent test it yet.

To night Iam going to respecc to test it out in raid but I have made some changes to the build which I think can improve the dmg. My build will look like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The reason I have put some points into Vile Poison is that I will have two nice ticks running along eachother, poison and rupture. One other benefit will be that I will have a nice finisher with Envenom which will crit for about 2,7-3,5 since this build dont have any talant points in Evis.

Can this work?

 

Iscariot

Well your basically trading sword spec for lethiality and vile poisons. Rupture is the ideal finisher with this build but even if a boss is bleed immune evis would still be better, given that envenom really needs improved poisons as well as vile to build up deadly poison fast (dual wielding deadly poisons will result in a dps loss overall given the alternative of using instant or windfury instead).

So increased damage on hemo and increased damage on your deadly poison for sword spec - i don't have the latest spreadsheet on this pc but i imagine sword spec would still be the better choice.

Edit: forgot to mention you also lose dps from not having wex.

 

Kursk

Thx for the input...Yes your are probably right about WEX. I will try this first and then go back on 11/28/22 to test it as well.

Vile Poison and Envenom will get a more powerfull finish then Evis especially when I dont have any talent points in it. VR and other immune bosses will be a nightmare but I hope I somehow make up with the debuff the raid gets.

 

• Neshalin

Weapon Expertise and Sword Specialization give a lot more dps than Lethality and Vile Poisons. Something along the line of 10 dps per talent point according to the spreadsheet.

A full stack of Deadly Poison ticks for 75 dps. Vile Poisons adds 4% to that per talent point. I'm not sure if Misery affects it, but it's not much at all either way. You would need to have very bad gear, not wield a sword, or use Envenom to make Vile Poisons better than Sword Specialization. Envenom and Eviscerate have been shown on this forum to be worse than Slice & Dice and Rupture. You even have talents in both finishers!

Lethality would compare better at high crit rates, but still doesn't get close to Sword Specialization. Weapon Expertise is even better.

 

Iscariot

Envenom really dosent work unless you have deadly poison on bith hands, in which case the extra dps from using envenom over eviscerate would be less than the dps you lose from not having instant poison or windfury on your mainhand.

I think it can work if you have deadly on your offhand but you would need 5/5 improved poisons or master poisoner (not sure how resist rates and partial resists on deadly ticks would effect dps loss as well as deadly poison application gains) as well as vile poisons. This is based on a mutilate build as well where your mutilate will be potentially adding a deadly poison with each mutilate on your offhand which of course you wouldn't have with a hemo/ss or backstab build.

Its basically a no-go for anything other than a mutilate build specced specifically to use envenom over eviscerate as a 3rd finsiher after slice and dice and rupture.

 

Autolycus

Great information here, thank you very much for your work. I'm new to these boards and I would have never thought of the potential of this build. I'm definately going to give it a shot since I'm currently using a 2.70 mainhand sword, however I'm only sitting slightly above 1500 AP with 258 hit rating. Not sure if that's good enough to be using hemo over traditional combat swords, but will give it a shot!

Cheers.

edit: 1572 ap

 

• Marroc

I am at roughly the same stats as you (a little higher) and it's about an equal trade for me.

The issue being that it's much harder to maintain the dps of this tri-spec than it is with just a standard 19/42 combat swords build.

Long story short, I decided it wasn't enough gain for the additional work and went back to combat for raiding, but you may see different results :P

 

Autolycus

Oh I forgot to ask about ghostly strike. Just to clarify, I heard some people say that it decreased their dps, and others saying they used it, but not a whole lot was said about it (sorry if this has been mentioned, I only really read the first 3 pages).

Did anyone's testing show if it was worth the energy?

 

FenceSSL

I find, like you said yourself it feels much harder to maintain similar DPS with this spec and as I'm not much interested in PvP I'm going to go back to my old 19/42/0 spec. At the end of the day though, you can keep respectable PvE DPS and some PvP goodies from the Sub tree, so I guess its not bad at all.

 

Yozoo

Just wondering if any one still use's this spec in any way? becuase i was thinking about finaly testing it out well hemo that is using either Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
or
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
or
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



Just wanted to see if any one had thoughts

 

bball13

After reading this Thread I switched over to hemo, since none of the other rogues was willing to try hemo and as class officer I had to give it a try
Hitting some trash with our warrior mt, it seemed to give tanks a benefit of approximately 30-50 tps (but thats not for sure, since we could try it on <lv73 mobs only, if someone has done better testing there please post some recap^^) and in melee dps spreadsheets it showed as ~30-50 dps more for rogues and warriors, so it looked like it was worth a try.
I chose the 11/28/22 specc and had a setup consisting of 1 warrior (bs) 1 feral / hunter and 2 other rogues in my group since there are only 3 shamans in our guild, one enhance, who has recently reached lv 70 so no gear for 25er instances, 1 elemental and 1 heal shamy so theres no wf left for our melees
Brutalis is specced combat sword, Targon combat dagger and Wildatheart 19/42 mutilate.
our 2 combat rogues have s2 weapons and wild has prince dagger and emerald ripper while I have Vindicators Brand MH and s2 offhand so I'm slightly behind regarding equip :/
Heres our WWS history, theres no chance in speccs over the course of this weeks with our combat / hemo rogues.
Wow Web Stats
Most of the fights I was able to have a similiar dps output, sometimes because of higher dps uptime, partly because the other had to do special jobs (like clicking cubes) but most of the time we were full dps.
It seems like Hemo is able to compare with the other speccs without windfury and even inferior equip, next week I'll get s2 mh so I'm most likely to have an increase in dps of ~50 considering the spreadsheets, reports will follow

so long, Palle

 

sp00n

You will want to have at least 1 point in WEx, as it equals 3% to hit against bossmobs. The second point equals another 0.5% to hit.

Item Ranking Rogue [horribly outdated]

 

0nighthawk0

I was 11/28/22 for a long time, however with maces so i didnt obtain the WEx talent but had 2 points to put anywhere else i needed. The raw dps of this build is very good, even if you do see a great lack of big numbers even with a 2.7 speed weapon, however the survivability prep brings and serrated blades makes it decent for PvP (helps i was mace specced).

While raiding the 2 main finishers were SnD and serrated blades rupture and the combo point gen rate generally lets you keep refreshing the cycles with little to no downtime and no wasted points. The white damage benefits from haste well as all your hits will gain the hemo debuff as long as its kept up (which is a lot easier in a 10 man or 25 man than it was in a 40 man).

I had a pre-tbc variant of this build as well and it produced great damage as i had a fair amount of WSkill on items (as obviously i couldnt reach WEx with the limited lvl60 talent points).

Dropped it for 17/42/2 atm a bit of a custom build, but hoping to have the equipment to truly spec back one day 2.8 speed weapon etc.

The problem is the threshold for Hemo vs SS.....simple SS with Agression the comparision could still be close imo, but with the 41pt talent in combat, Hemo needs and incredibly amount of AP to break even even in terms of damage per energy (obviously this is all imo) but everytime i run the numbers its the same.

 

Endac

I've been playing around with this build and my current gear in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet, as well as a couple other builds to check the "predicted" DPS buffed/unbuffed and how they compared, and I found something interesting. Another possible build.

Now I know that it would somewhat lack the utility of the OP Hemo build, but I was curious as to what others felt. I entered my current gear (4/5 T5, mostly SSC/TK/BT loot to sum it up... Armory it if you like) along with my current and potential future weapons and found that both the buffed and unbuffed DPS was increased over the above build.

11/20/30

Basically I was going for a build outside of Combat Maces. Only a few pieces to go and then I can test it.

 

Mojofabulous

Well, after reading all 13 pages of this thead I have to say I'm coming out of it pretty disappointed that no real solid evidence was posted comparing one person's combat swords vs hemo swords dps on a reliable boss encounter (example naj'entus).

What I do know is, between all this arguing about how well serrated blades scales versus combat potency, etc, one fact seems to of remained ignored. The hemo debuff, other than a raid's slowly increasing average crit rate/armor reduction, does not scale. I can pretty easily output 1300+ dps on most bosses these days. Shade of akama 1700+ pretty easy. Rogues with warglaives and DST and 4/5 t6 are breaking 2k reliable dps. Add another 13-16 dpsers in a raid to the mix all doing their 900-1400 dps and I gotta say, why the heck does this thread even matter? We're talking about a 85dps raid buff. Maybe a 126 if everyone crits, and this is assuming every charge is eaten right? That's on a boss too. What about the dps you're losing on trash? You are entirely rupture dependant as hemo, most trash in hyjal when focus fired dies faster than the duration of a rupture, much less the time it takes to build up the combo points to do a full rupture in addition to the rupture ticking to duration. Since dps is often split on trash you defintely wont be getting all the charges eaten as often as on a boss. Multiple people here have admitted their dps has suffered on trash, last time I checked, trash is what most raid time is spent on. Trash is continually underestimated in importance compared to boss attempts. Go to Hyjal and say trash isn't important.

The only way I can see hemo being worth it as a PvE build to someone who is using it to 'contribute to the raid's dps' is if the debuff scaled. Since the only possible way I can think of that it could scale is with combat potency, it seems a moot point. Combat potency Hemo builds have continually been labeled as inferior (to the initially proposed build) throughout this thread.

In fact the biggest point of the debate in this thread doesn't even seem to be about the hemo debuff. It revolves around the serrated blades talent, specifically the armor it reduces. If you want armor reduction so bad, there are several pieces in Hyjal/BT that provide it and since we've pretty consistantly stated that you need to be BT/Hyjal geared for this spec to be truly parallel to combat swords it seems most logical to remain combat swords and pick up the armor reduction gear. Afterall, as was stated above, even at the most ideal circumstances, serrated blades does not seem to scale as well as combat potency(Note I am depending upon the math of others supporting that fact, as I am incredibly poor at math).

EDIT: Btw, I don't mean to offend anyone by this post, especially the original author. I came in to this thread extremely curious and hopeful. I guess I'm just a little disenchanted atm :-/ Sorry for the negativity.

 

sp00n

Huh, well, I'm mostly in Kara gear (and still wearing 2 blues - guild is 6/6 SSC and 2 TE), and most times (if I don't get unlucky) I still end up #1 or #2 on the damage meters. Basically the only time I'm not first is either a) when I get extremely unlucky (e.g. watery graves), b) forgot to switch my correct gear on (*cough* swim speed belt *cough*) or c) a rogue with certainly better gear is around. Even then I sometimes place better than him.

Regarding thrash, according to the last SSC run, overall I was about half a million damage above anyone else, so it can't be that bad.

Of course it could be that the other players are so bad, that I am so good, that they are so often afk, but that's just my personal experience.

Item Ranking Rogue [horribly outdated]

 

Mojofabulous