antonmb

Anybody tried this out?

 

Melnor

For that 11/20/30 build, why do you have 5 points in opportunity? Certainly not for just the 20% dmg to garrote?

 

• Shifft

More DPS than the alternatives =/

Also, are you sure that build would be better than 11/21/29?

20% haste 1/8 of the time is about 40 haste rating (post-patch), and the extra point in Deadliness, at 3000 AP (excessive), would be 60 AP. I'd probably take 40 haste over 60 AP, with the added benefit that it's actually much better than 40 haste rating because it stacks multiplicatively and you can use it on-demand.

 

Endac

I ran the numbers in the DPS spreadsheet (2.2.0.8) real quick with the gear I had in there already, and 11/20/30 is still better than 11/21/29... but only by 1-3 DPS overall. Blade Flurry would give more utility in trash/boss fights with multiple mobs, so losing 1-3 DPS and picking that up would be just a matter of personal choice. Also, that version I'm using does take into account the haste rating nerf of the next patch... sigh... now I need a beer just thinking about that.

And I haven't gotten to test this yet because Kael and Supremus are being stubborn with their drops and neither mace has dropped since I started working on this. But once one of them are finally nice to me, then i'll let you know about the test results... although I'm almost positive that I will lose around 50-75 DPS from combat swords.

Oh, and I took Opportunity 5 because... well... what other talent in that tree on the way to Deadliness would give me any kind of DPS boost for a hemo build? The final point in Setup won't do anything since I shouldn't be getting hit anyway, but I needed filler points... hence the 2/3 Setup in my build. I mean, I guess I could snag Elusiveness 2 to Vanish/Garrote more on a boss, but I don't know if the Vanish 1:30 sooner would be better than a 30% increase in Garrote damage from normally using Vanish. Depending on the boss and the fight time, I guess it could be... but meh.

 

Breganth

I'm mildly curious about something. Someone brought to my attention, a post in the WoW Arathor realm forums, where one of our resident trolls posted:

Can someone give me some insight as to what's so amusing? Does my gear suck? Is it the spec? Gem choices? When I started using this spec, EJ was the place I came (in this very thread) to seek advice, and the spec I'm using now was the one most recommended.

I'm always interested in advice that will enhance my raid performance, so feel free to offer up.

 

Azaziel

Well I assume that the ones making fun of that link is the same that dont believe hemo can do decent dps. Its a solid build/gear for 2vs2, 3vs3 arena and will do slightly under a full combat build in raid dps.

Personally I was considering switching back to 11/21/29 because I was always threatcapped on many fights and a 2nd vanish would have made alot of diffrence in my dps output. Now after the nerfs and our warriors catching up gearwise it probably wont happen.

 

Philosopher

Nah, your build and gear look good to me. People just would rather believe their stupid conventional wisdom than the numbers. You will have better dps on any threat-capped fight and the difference between your dps and a pure combat will probably be less than your hemo gives to other people.

Your +hit is a little low, I'd have gone with the +12agil/+crit damage gem over the haste rating and+15 agility to gloves over +24 attack power, but which of those is better is probably determined by whether something bleeds and none of it is a huge deal.

Mostly people are just dumb. Even when faced with numbers there are still people who don't believe hemo can dps. I could get an additional +20 damage on the spreadsheet going full combat, and I'm giving more than that to the raid with hemo, including extra tank threat which lets the threat-capped classes do more. It hurts more when things don't bleed, but I make up for it by being able to stunlock trash. I wish there was anything useful in the first two tiers of subtlety, but until that happens it's still worth it to me. Besides, if I'm having fun playing I'll focus more and dps better anyway ;-)

 

darkseph

after reading through this thread, and discussing it with a friend of mine, i decided to try it out. i followed the exact spec that was originally posted.

wws report

i was surprised at how much damage i did and what my dps was. there are two factors to consider when looking at this report, one being that i wasnt on cube duty at all. the other rogues had to go click cubes either throughout the fight or near the end of the fight to replace someone. the other factor would be that i did die sometime between 12% and 15% because i wasnt paying attention and got hit with a cave-in.

edit: i'll actually have some comparable data after the gruul kill for the week from when i was 19/42/0 to 11/28/22

 

Kursk

I have suggested to my guild that we should use an Arms-specced warrior and one Hemo rogue (Iam).

I cant really not see the benefit to use a fury warrior since the arm warrior give a nice buff to the raid. Can anyone confrim Iam right or complete wrong?

 

• Aldriana

It depends. It's true that a Fury warrior provides no additional group benefit beyond battle shout. It's also true that a fury warrior tends to do inherently more damage than an Arms warrior. So the question is, "which is worth more, the inherently higher DPS of fury warrior, or the 4% physical damage buff to the raid". The answer to the question depends on your raid composition; if you brings lots of rogues and enhancement shaman and hunters, the arms warrior will probably perform better. If, on the other hand, your composition is more caster-heavy, the fury warrior may be a better choice.

Also, it should be noted that if you're bringing more than 1 DPS warrior, there's no reason to bring 2 arms warriors; at least one of them should be fury.

 

◊ Shaker

It would be interesting (and should be in a different thread) to get a good feel for exactly where that tradeoff is at. #s to get the answer would be DPS difference between equally geared Arms/Fury warrior (with levels if they scale differently, i.e. 'at endgame gear vs in T5 gear vs in Karazhan/T4 gear'). At which point we should be able to come up with a "If you have more than _____ physical DPS besides your Arms warrior, he brings more dmg to the raid than a fury warrior would".

Of course, one thing to note as a possible side benefit of Blood Frenzy is that it "moves" the threat from a lot of that damage onto two classes which can shed it easily (rogues/hunters) and also the tank should be generating another 2% (rough number) more threat with BF up as well, since they're doing more physical damage - all in all this makes everyone (except Enh Shammy)'s lives a little easier on threat sensitive fights.

 

Kursk

The thing is that fury warrios often have hold back on the dmg due to the aggro and arms specced more full out which means the pretty much do the same dmg with the big diffrence that fury dont give any buff.

 

• Aldriana

That depends a lot on the fight and the quality of your tank, I would argue. While it's certainly possible to have fury warriors in a hit-capped situation, it is by no means always true. Moreover, there are a number of fights where, regardless of tank quality, you won't be even remotely threat-limited. For instance:

*Karathress, any add after the first.
*Al'ar, phase 2.
*Astromancer
*Shade of Akama
*Bloodboil, during Fel Rage

...and probably some others that I'm forgetting.

Beyond which, even in a situation where the fury warrior is somewhat threat limited, he may well do more damage than an Arms warrior anyway, if not as much as he could in a threat-free situation.

That said: as an off-the-cuff estimate, the damage difference would need to be on the order of a couple hundred DPS between the two warriors before it would make sense to take the fury, and I frankly have no idea how feasible that is.

 

sp00n

From the patch notes:

 

koaschten

Guess i will go 11 / 28 / 22 once again just to see what it can pump out

 

Valentine_tvc

If any rogue out there has a decent stack of armour negation items and is running some Hemo variant build I would greatly appreciate it if you could post some WWS stat links.

Thanks in advance.

 

koaschten

I'll run 11/28/22 tonight at Mount Hyjal / Black Temple and can add an [Choker of Serrated Blades] to my current Gear to reach roughly 1k armor penetration. Guess it shouldnt be a problem to add a WWS link later on (aka in ~12hrs)

 

schmurfy

Hi, I am not a rogue myself but there is a question I wanted to ask you: What dps cycle would you use while specced 11/28/22 ?

 

Ozzmar

Try plugging the spec into the Rogue spreadsheet. I don't have it in front of me (at work), but I'm assuming it would recommend 5s/5r as Serrated Blades is going to make your Rupture tick pretty hard.

 

schmurfy

ok I put the talent build in the spreadsheet and the cycle is as you said 5s/5r but how is this read ?
By reading the first page of the xls I suppose it means: reach 5 cp then use serrated blade then rupture, is this right ?

 

Ozzmar

(1-5) = Combo Points
s = Slice and Dice
r = Rupture

And Serrated Blades isn't an ability. It's a passive talent that decreases your target's armor and increases the damage done by Rupture.

The spreadsheet is saying:

Get 5 combo points.
Hit Slice and Dice.
Get 5 more combo points.
Use Rupture.
Repeat.

Make sense?

 

schmurfy

Thanks for the explanations

 

darkseph

I believe that if you have 2 pieces of tier 4, the best cycle is 1s/5r. Just from my own testing, I can usually keep this cycle going with only a few times where slice and dice isn't up, usually because a rupture was dodged (I have bad luck with this).

If you don't have 2 pieces of tier 4, i have heard that 2s/5r or 3s/5r works well.

 

aleyro

The 2.3 thread (2.3 Discussion) lists some really compelling additions to sub...

- Shadowstep will be usable outside of stealth, and will reduce the threat of the next backstab/garrote/ambush by 50%, but will have the cooldown changed to 40s
- Dirty Deeds will increase the damage of special attacks by 10/20% against low health targets
- Hemo might be getting a damage boost
- Deadly Throw snare extended by 1sec

...but it seems that they're planning these more as PVP buffs (except for the odly placed threat reduction?). If these changes are combined with some sub-friendly itemization choices in ZA, then sub may be a real contender for top DPS spot.

 

◊ Kalman

Went ahead and fixed that. Sub still ain't going to beat out combat overall, but it may well be competitive, due almost entirely to the DDexecute change.