Promised WWS with me being 11/28/22
Daemona - WWS

These 2 changes, assuming they go live, may well prove to be what persuades me to spec back to Combat Hemo*. I tried it out a few weeks ago and found that, while still viable, my overall contribution to a raid was better if I simply specced Combat.

However, even just the 20% boost to Hemo damage (I wonder if finishers are included in the term 'special attacks') for 35% of the fight (A rather significant 7% increase to overall 'special attack' damage) sounds like it will push overall raid dps contribution over that of speccing Combat.

I think I'd prefer it if meant that they were improving the Hemo debuff than adding a passive damage boost to the Hemo attack itself.

The way I see it the shortcomings of a Hemo build are mainly the fault of the Hemo debuff - it sucks. It has a fantastic potential of adding 87.5dps to the rest of the raid but it never even comes close to reaching that becuase you often refresh it long before the 30 charges are used up or have periods where you don't have the debuff applied at all beacuse you're out of energy.

If the debuff was changed to having no charges and simply lasting for a certain time (for example, 10 seconds) but refreshed each time you landed another Hemo then its uptime would be significantly improved and it's likely that the overall raid contribution would be noticably higher taking a single Hemo rogue than taking another deep Combat rogue, especially when taking the extra damage the Hemo rogue would be doing when the boss reaches 35% health.

If they passively buff the actual Hemorrhage attack then we could get to the stage where the Hemo builds would individually outdps deep Combat builds. Personally I think that's as much a mistake as the current situation where deep Combat builds bring more overall raid contribution than taking even a single Hemo rogue. At least that was what I found when I tried the 11/28/22 build a few weeks ago.

I'm a big fan of 'off specs' and would love to think I could spec Hemo and actually be benefitting the raid, especially if I'm doing so despite my own dps being lower. It's like enhancement shamans or even tanks - what they bring to the raid is much more than their dps. I feel that the Hemo raiding rogue should be the same.





*originally this said 11/28/22 but koaschten's post made me realise I was mixing up Dirty Deeds and Dirty Tricks. To take 2/2 Dirty Deeds you actually need to take either 11/27/23 or 11/26/24, which means you can only take a maximum of 1 point in Weapon Expertise. For humans this is not an issue, nor is it for Mace Spec rogues, but for everybody else it probably means you won't be taking Preparation.

You'd have to specc for 11/26/24 instead of 11/28/22. You need to have 20 points in Sub to reach Hemo, if you take Hemo and 2/2 Dirty Deeds you already need 23 points (1 point taken from Weapon Expertise) at which point its more efficient i'd say to take the 2nd point out too and put it in Preparation.

Thanks alot.

Gonna repost the link on my guild forums for my rogue buddies. Hope you don't mind.

Uh, no.
You'd be losing 3% hit with that last 1 point of WeX. If you have to choose between 1 point in WeX and Preperation, from a purely DPS view, you should take WeX (if you're not already hit capped, which is quite hard to reach without sacrificing other stats).
Of course that means to drop that nice wipe protection as well, which has saved me hundreds of golds for repair costs so far (all other rogues get eaten by the combat pulse while I can simply double vanish ).

Where did i have my mind. sp00n, of cause you are right!

Well i consider my [Warglaive of Azzinoth] a good MH for hemo. But yes you are right, there are more good Hemo Maces than Swords.

Well, if you happen to have the Vashj belt you wouldn't need any points in WeX. I'm pretty sure we will stop doing SSC before we see it drop . Not to mention I'd prolly pass 'cuz I got Don Alejandro's yesterday.

Ah yes, it seems I was mistaking Dirty Deeds for Dirty Tricks.

11/26/24 or 11/27/23 it is then. Being human I'd take 11/26/24, since I already have the +5 to swords from my racial trait.

I think it's clear that, even with sacrificing 1 point in Weapon Expertise, the increase to 'special attack' damage and whatever buff to the Hemo ability they bring will still improve the overall raid contribution of the spec to make it not only viable but highly desirable to take a single Hemo rogue.

So I've been trying out an 11/21/29 spec (maces, dragonmaw and glad offhand) since I found this thread, and I've gotta say I'm liking it. My gear is not super high-end, basically full kara gear, but I've been keeping right on par with our combat dagger rogues (equally geared).

I know the weapon skill from mace spec (which I don't have at the moment) is great, but how does it compare to deadliness? According to the dps spreadsheet, points in deadliness are more dps than points in mace spec. I had a choice to either pick up all 5 points in mace spec, or pick up prep and 4 points in deadliness (or some combo of the two). I went with prep and 4 in deadliness.

So basically, here's the question. The spreadsheet says a point in deadliness is worth more dps than a point in mace spec. Is there some combo of the two (1 point mace spec, 3 points deadliness, etc.) that is actually better than either of the two extremes? The spreadsheet says no, but maybe there is something it's not taking into account.

Oh, also, here is a wws report of my last gruul raid. I know my gear is not breathtaking, but it's more data for the mill. Using an 11/21/29. Other rogues are combat daggers. (don't mind the ssc data, we are just starting there)
Wow Web Stats

Edit: I'm the rogue in slot #1 in the above report, kinda left that out.

If you takte 3 points in mace spec, you will miss 3.1% less (6 points weaponskill). 2 points in mace spec would be only 1.6% (4 points weaponskill) and 4 mace spec would be 3.3% (8 points weapon skill).
Depending on how high your hit rating and your attack power is, 3 mace spec is the sweet spot.

Maybe it's my gear (AP whoring) causing this, but for some reason the spreadsheet keeps telling me that 11/20/30 (so picking up Deadliness) is better then 11/2x/2x. So Deadliness seems to outperform Swordspec.
I'm still thinking about dropping one point of Deadliness again for Flurry though. Spreadsheet says no, but it definitely has its uses outside boss bossfights.
(Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft here, and yes, Setup does make a difference, even if it's marginal, it's a better DPS filler then Elusiveness/HS for me)

Though with elusiveness, more vanishes equals more aggro clears. While it's not a direct DPS filler, it allows you more freedom on boss fights.

I played around with 11/27/23 last night in SSC on trash and our 1st attempts on Lurker, and I matched one other rogues' dps (~740) and exceeded another's (~680). I'm normally top dps by 100+, and on our last gruul attempt got 1024dps vs the next rogue down of about 820. Of course, I was a lot better buffed than too... I'm also the only rogue with DST.
So it's not a direct comparison (trash vs gruul), and the buff levels are all different. But it's still an interesting enough note.
When I manage to get to Gruul again (v2.2.2 stuffed up macs for raiding), I'll have a better direct comparison of the dps of this new spec.

Also, I've basically found that prep is mildly useless... 3.5 minute vanish is more than enough for most fights. Especially for a spec that runs with lower burst. So I'm actually going to drop prep and GS to pick up dirty deeds (when v2.3 hits anyway).

My sincere apologies if this was covered already, but I've scoured the thread and didn't find anything.

Anyway, I'm looking to find out exactly when the Hemo debuff is calculated into your end damage. This post implies that Hemo works like a Striking enchant, which would mean that all damage modifiers, right down to the Backstab % mod, apply to Hemo. That doesn't sound right to me.

The Hemo tooltip makes it sound as though the 10 damage is added in last, perhaps even after armor mitigation.

Does anyone know the final word on this?

As far as I know, it's always just been a flat +10 dmg at the end of everything else. Which leads to the idea that it is a theoretical 85.7 raid dps.

Yea, I always understood that it was just tacked on to the end of the damage equation like a damage bonus from Sinister Strike or Backstab.

(AP/14)*WeaponSpeed + WeaponDamage + ExtraDamage

That's not correct. Everyone can easily test it, with Kick and a Hemo Debuff on a Player with zero Armor.

The +10 ExtraDamage is affected by lethality and critical hits. On the other side, the +Damage is reduced by armor.


Source:

Hemorrhage: A Guide from Cocoabutta
WoW Forums -> Hemorrhage: A Guide [Updated 10/19/06]

WWS reports- From 19/42 to 11/28/22

Sept 27- combat swords (day after patch ><)
784 DPS

Oct 4- combat swords
887 DPS

Oct 10- Combat Hemo
804 DPS

First off, my DPS seemed to dip a little, although, not a whole lot (thinking around 20-30 DPS over the course of the raid). I did opt out of some +hit to get more AP when I respecced. Gave up 1.20 hit (19 rating) and about 2% to crit for 100 AP. (Ill make the hit back when Girdle of the Deathdealer drops....). At that point, Im expecting that ill retain that DPS that I lost.

Im going to keep raiding with the combat hemo spec for a little while. I havent did any arena yet with it to better judge its PVP use compared to combat swords but just having MoD, Camo, Set-up, GS, and Prep should mean a much better outcome.

http://wowwebstats.com/eflxglqtjvk3u
That's my WWS when specced 11/27/23 in heroic BM tonight.
On the 1st boss, I hit 992 dps. My highest combat swords dps was in Gruul's @ 1025 as a comparison.
And I'm in exactly the same gear as I was then.

Granted there are some differences due to boss level. buffs and type of fight, but it's still a nice indication of what the spec is capable of. I'm fully intending to tweak the spec when 2.3 hits, and drop prep & something else (maybe ghostly strike... thoughts?) in order to get 2/2 Dirty Deeds.

--edit--
Just saw the PTR patch notes, and noted the lack of hemo or DD buff... But also the interesting change to WEx...
Perhaps now going to an 11/20/30 build with 5/5 Deadliness will be an even better idea...? Would an extra 200+AP when raid buffed make up for roughly 2.5% less dodges?
--edit2--
Drysc has confirmed that the DD Buff is going to happen, that it just missed the patch notes is all. So the whole sub raiding spec seems to be getting more and more viable.
Does 10% more AP translate to 10% more damage overall?

The upcoming changes to Mace spec (Mace Specialization (rogue version) is now 5 ranks, each rank increases mace critical strike damage by 1% and 1% chance to stun for 3 sec. - as stated here) look really interesting, especially after I picked up a [Syphon of the Nathrezim] yesterday. Seeing as I don't have a mace offhand yet (but it shouldn't be required with the change to WS in 2.3) I was wondering how a combination of hemo, mace spec (mainhand) and sword spec (offhand) would work out (something like this). I suppose swordprocs on the Syphon wont make up for the dmgloss from Rel Strikes (and possibly 1/3 Ruth)?

Ok here are the three hemo builds I have been looking at for 2.3. Which do you guys think is the best for PVE dps? Do you think they will out dps deep combat swords? Theorycraft away!

11.20.30 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
3.28.30 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
11.27.23 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft