Maurice2u

The 11/27/23 is where I lean towards. Little seems to justify the loss of dual Sword Spec procs, Blade Fury, and WE (1) for 200AP from Deadliness (variable). Equally, I find it hard to give up the energy return of relentless strikes. 500More AP wouldn't help you if you don't get to actually use it due to lack of energy. 10% AP boost will not recover the damage lost from being able to use an ability 10% less of the time. That's not the direct translation of the energy lost, but conceptually, that's the gist of it.

 

tenaki

Hemo has been buffed on the PTR.
It is now +36 to all physical damage, 10 charges or 15 seconds.
So a fully used hemo debuff now adds 102.86dps to the raid.
And it is quite very feasible to see all 10 charges used in 3.5seconds in a 25-man raid.
So raid viability wise, hemo's become more useful.
In addition to the DD buff, 2.3 bodes nothing but good for the sub rogue.

Shadowstep has also been changed again. 30 sec cooldown instead, usable out of stealth, +20% dmg increase to next ability (including hemo, evis, envenom, etc), -50% threat on that ability.

 

• Vulajin

...time to bury my face in my spreadsheets again. I'll try to work out a comparison of hemo/sword spec vs. combat swords soon.

 

tenaki

I'm currently running a 11/20/30 build on the PTR and am enjoying it.
I'm running a 11/27/23 build on live, and am also enjoying it...

I don't see the point of a 3/28/30 build. :P

My original idea with 11/20/30 is that WEx no longer does that dodgy +3% hit against some mobs, but rather just gives -1.25/2.5% dodge. And that can be made up for with the sudden surplus of +exp gear. Whereas an extra 10% AP from all buffs is purely talent related.

Sword spec is roughly an extra 5% damage and no longer procs on procs.
So ya, I'm thinking an 11/20/30 build might work quite well.
*shrug* Will find out in when 2.3 hits live i suspect.

 

• Vulajin

Quick question, does anyone know if Hemo debuff charges are consumed on non-landed attacks?

 

virtuzoso

I'm pretty underwhelmed by the change. I was expecting something a bit flashier or some new functionality or something. Not... +36 damage.

 

geome

Well, after seeing the hemo change, there is one key change that just might tip the scales of this builds.

The Dirty Deeds change.

20% special damage on targets below 35% hp is a good deal.

The build would probably have to be a bit awkward...Probably:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



(Haven't done the math on 1 point in new WEx vs 1 in the new DD yet, but seems plausibly better. ~5% dps for last 3rd of fight.)


However, another thing that is worth looking into with hemo is whether fist spec could be better, considering that crits give double the extra hemo damage, and fists will crit more often.

 

sltyntzhrt

If hemo is still not normalized, the max possiblity of getting the most out of your personal dps isnt going to be realized with a 2.7 weapon speed. So either a sword spec with warglaives or more reachable weapon a Syphon of Naztherim(sp) woud be better, as they are 2.8 speed. This would allow a 11/27/23 build with Mace Spec, BF, 1/2 Expertise and the new Dirty Deeds.

Before the 10 charge limit, hemo had a 30 charge limit so it was ideal to stack haste and a fast OH to use up charges. With the change haste would still be important but to help the other melee maybe a rod of the sun king in the OH to go with a Syphon for a poor mans Combat Potency. I know the proc rate is under 1 ppm as i had .8 with 20m of testing but there would be no better OH and would allow faster hemo strikes to help the charges stay up longer

I dont have a spreadsheet and i dont do math well but this would seem the best way to max your DPS and your raids at the same time, or i could be very wrong.

 

• Vulajin

I modeled the new Hemorrhage in my personal DPS spreadsheet using the following method:

- Using the cycle calculations in my sheet to produce an average number of special attacks performed per second, I multiplied this by 10 to figure out the average number of Hemo charges available for consumption per second.
- I then assumed some rough average figures for the individuals in the raid who would be consuming the Hemo debuff. These were 30% crit and 85% chance to land an attack. I also assumed that attacks that don't land don't consume Hemo charges. If this is wrong, please correct me and I'll fix my modeling.
- I multiplied the effect of these factors against the 36 damage provided per Hemo charge, times the number of Hemo charges available per second, to arrive at a bonus DPS estimate.
- This estimate was then added into the global DPS estimate for the build.

The gear assumed as a base for personal DPS is my own, as visible in my Armory. The following specs were considered:

1) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Combat swords with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
2) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Combat daggers with [Fang of Vashj] and [Merciless Gladiator's Shiv]
3) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Talon of Azshara], [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
4) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/27/23, 1/2 W.Ex., 2/2 Dirty Deeds, same weapons
5) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Dragonstrike], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]
6) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Syphon of the Nathrezim], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]
7) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Syphon of the Nathrezim], [Rod of the Sun King]
8) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/20/30, [Talon of Azshara], [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
9) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/20/30, [Dragonstrike], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]

Also note that for all sword- or mace-based builds, 2s/5r was used as the cycle (and it did turn out to be optimal for all the builds in question), while for the dagger build, 1s/3r was used.

---

1) Using my standard gear and build, my theoretical DPS output is 1443.40.
2) Using combat daggers with the Fang/Shiv combo, my theoretical output is 1399.27. This is a decrease of 44.13 DPS (-3.06%). Note that this difference does not account for the additional loss of Murder on mobs that are Murder-able. The difference should actually be more like 5%.
3) The hemo/swords build with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1485.16 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.77 (+2.89%) over the combat swords build. Note that Dirty Deeds is simply modeled as a 10% increase per point on special damage 35% of the time (thus it is slightly overvalued).
4) The hemo/swords build with 1/2 W.Ex. and 2/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1484.44 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.04 (+2.84%) over the combat swords build. Recall that Dirty Deeds is slightly overvalued; even still, trading one point of Weapon Expertise for one point of Dirty Deeds is found to be suboptimal. From now on, therefore, we shall only consider builds with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds.
5) Using that build, then, with [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and mace spec, gives a theoretical DPS output of 1442.97. This is a decrease of 0.42 (-0.03%) from the combat swords build.
6) Instead using [Syphon of the Nathrezim] as a main hand increases the theoretical output to 1443.05. This is a decrease of 0.34 (-0.02%) relative to the combat swords build. Note that the "upgrade" to the slower Syphon barely matters because of the strength of Dragonstrike itself. Speed is not necessarily the end-all be-all here.
7) Per the second in a post above mine, switching in a [Rod of the Sun King] for an offhand results in a theoretical DPS output of 1425.79. This is a loss of 17.61 (-1.22%) DPS relative to the combat swords build. The energy granted by the Rod is more than offset by the huge drop in DP uptime.
8) Switching builds to 11/20/30 with swords results in a theoretical output of 1481.81. This is an increase of 38.41 (+2.66%) over the combat swords build.
9) Finally, trying 11/20/30 with maces results in a theoretical output of 1481.50. This is an increase of 38.11 (+2.64%) over the combat swords build.

Conclusions: 11/28/22 swords may very well be quite competitive with combat swords for DPS. It certainly might not be a bad investment to have one Hemo rogue in a raid, depending on quite a lot of factors of your physical DPS classes, including their crit rates, abilities used, and armor penetration. 11/20/30 will be slightly inferior to 11/28/22 with swords, but for other weapon types, it will be superior. Finally, 2/2 Weapon Expertise is likely more important and a higher priority for any combat/sub hybrid build than 2/2 Dirty Deeds.

(edit) Additionally, it does seem that 2.6 is sufficient speed for Hemo to function, even though it's not what we would normally consider "slow." [Blade of Infamy] proves to be roughly as good for an 11/28/22 build as [Talon of Azshara] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]. Of course, the MH Warglaive is by far the best Hemo weapon, but even with the Talon, Hemo damage is quite comparable to combat swords (at least assuming I've modeled it even remotely accurately).

 

Wodahs

Vulajin, what are you using to model this?
I'm looking at a 11/27/23 build right now for patch, but gear is a bit different.
I have a mh warglaive, oh s2 slicer
4 pieces t5, Cursed vision of sargaeras, and pretty optimal gear in other slots, including belt of 100 deaths ofr expertise rating.
Im currently a 19/42 build, which I may move around a bit.
If my numbers are right, its looking like this may put out more dps than my combat sword build. Perhaps my numbers are different, as I am looking at a different armor level of mobs? I'm not sure.

 

• Vulajin

It's a personal spreadsheet which I can PM or e-mail to you upon request. The gear used as a base is my own current gear, as indicated in the above post.

 

sltyntzhrt

I'm looking at your gear and notice how well its put together for a pve combat build. As u said you based the spreadsheet off your gear combined with the weapons. The question becomes how less valuable do you consider hit as a needed stat and the ability to stack AP and crit becomes. With no combat potency i think the need for hit becomes less important and less penalizing. 225 hit, 250 hit? Maybe a vashj belt and alar gloves to max ur expertise and 250 hit?

Edit :Stated before hemo becomes more valuable then sinister strike when an attack power soft cap is reached but its a abnormal amount i think. i know i seen a post bout this somewhere but its late and cant find it

 

monkorn

Curious, how would a 0/40/21-0/39/22-0/37/24 build do DPS wise? Ignoring the fact that you might not get off all charges while ARing...

 

geome

Vulajin, is it possible you could model it with MH Talon of the Phoenix and OH s2 wep?

It seems the crit bonus affecting hemo could possibly outweigh swords slightly. (Extra 32 damage w/ out wasting an extra hemo buff)


And also, are you using the new W.Ex or current one for these?

 

songster

When you ran the numbers for 11/20/30, did you re-gem for AP, and if so how did it affect the figures?

Similarly, I'd be interested to see how 11/20/30 looks with Executioner rather than Mongoose, since you'll get disproportionate benefit from combining Executioner with Serrated Blades.

 

geome

Isn't armor pen a static % damage increase? Unless you somehow have more armor pen than the boss has armor, the benefit should be the same.

 

Azalin1401

Does anyone know if the hemo damage is added before or after DR from mobs? I assume since people are saying that the bonus 36 damage from hemo can be multiplied by talents with increase critical strike damage that it is added before.

So, if such is the case, and correct me if I'm wrong, but: Aren't all these calculations of estimated hemo debuff damage going to be way off after applying armor values?

 

• Vulajin

Using build number 8 from my previous post as a base (11/20/30 with Talon and Quickblade, with theoretical DPS of 1481.81), I tried switching all my red gems (3 of them) to [Delicate Living Ruby] and all my yellows (3 of them) to [Glinting Noble Topaz] to preserve set bonuses while gaining some agility (and therefore attack power). The total DPS output afterwards was 1483.37. This is very slightly better (roughly 0.11%) than the result obtained from build 8 in my previous post.

I subsequently tried changing all the [Delicate Living Ruby] to [Bright Living Ruby]. This reduced the DPS output to 1482.87, obviously a slight decrease relative to the agility gems. Then I tried changin the [Glinting Noble Topaz] to [Wicked Noble Topaz], with similarly negative results.

Finally, I tried one more change, undoing all of the above gem changes and instead resocketing both of my [Shifting Nightseye] for [Balanced Nightseye]. This resulted in theoretical DPS of 1481.67, inferior to the original configuration.

Keep in mind that even if you give up Sword Specialization and Combat Potency, and even if you don't have a [Dragonspine Trophy], hit is still one of the most efficient ways to increase your DPS. Plus, Windfury damage does depend on it quite a bit. All in all, I'd guess that it's not worthwhile to sacrifice hit for crit or AP with an 11/20/30 build (and certainly not 11/28/22, where hit would be valued higher due to Sword Specialization), but it may be worthwhile to trade hit for agility at roughly a 1:1 rate.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fZ0eVbbVzxMMRxVMe0Mh0o

(edit 2) I had made several mistakes. The above linked build, using [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade], actually comes out to 1446.44 (3.04 or +0.21% over combat swords). Also, lack of Murder. This build is neither competitive with combat swords nor competitive with 11/28/22.

I am using the new W.Ex. as I could best model it (6.5% base dodge and 28% base miss chance assumed). As for the crit bonus from fist weapons, you would get approximately 19 extra damage on average from the Hemo charges that you manage to consume. However, since you're not the only one using them, the overall effect on the debuff DPS would be minimal. I'd estimate that, for 11/20/30, fists come out roughly equal to everything else (since weapon type doesn't actually matter for that build), and for 11/28/22, it would be roughly between swords and maces (see builds 3 and 5 in my previous post).

See above for info about 11/20/30 regarding re-socketing. As for Executioner, if you assume that it procs at exactly the same rate as Mongoose, it's coming out as being inferior to Mongoose (42 agility compared to roughly 296 armor penetration).

Armor penetration has increasing DPS returns. It has been claimed (and proven) to have a static return if you weight it based on the change in the target's "time to live," but I (among many other theorycrafters) don't necessarily like "time to live" as a metric.

It is added before any damage modifications, including armor DR, crit rates, glancing blows, and ability-specific damage mods. I have accounted for this in all my estimates, assuming base raid boss armor of 7700, per [RAID] Boss armor values , reduced by 2600 from 5 stacks of Sunder, 610 from Faerie Fire, and 800 from Curse of Recklessness.

 

AniwenofLothar

any viability in reaching for combat potency?

0/38/22 ?

"Such ... is the state of life, that none are happy but by the anticipation of change; the change itself is nothing; when we have made it, the next wish is to change again."

 

• Vulajin

This is covered in the post directly above you. The answer is no.

 

Pcr

Vulajin:

Have you modeled something along the lines of 6/31/24?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With two ARs under 35% through the use of prep?

 

Blacklisted

Have you tried your 11/20/30 spec with 11/21/29, losing 2% AP but gaining blade flurry?

 

• Vulajin

The loss of Relentless Strikes is simply not worth this. Think of Relentless Strikes as awarding 5 energy per combo point you generate over the course of the fight (assuming that you never run over the 5 CP limit and waste any). Assuming a ten-minute fight and a 2s/5r cycle, you're spending 295 energy per cycle, but getting 35 back. Since there's no Combat Potency, you get 10 energy per second, so the energy gain from Relentless Strikes is 1.19 per second.

Three AR's in one fight is worth 450 energy. If you assume a 10-minute fight (as most fights are these days), this is 0.75 energy per second.

(edit) If you weight this by the contribution of Dirty Deeds, then the Relentless Strikes energy is actually worth 1.27 per second, and the AR energy 1.13 per second. Considering the loss of general utility from not having Relentless Strikes, I'd consider this not worthwhile.

This looks like a worthwhile trade, to the tune of roughly 5 DPS (and a ton of utility).

 

geome

That makes it the best one, ever so slightly, correct? The 11/21/29

Also, another thing I found interesting is Setup.

In many fights, you're using CloS to fully resist a spell.


How much dps do you think you'd get with a CloS every 1.5-2 minutes adding a combo point? ( Or occasionally multiple ones, like Solarian?)
It's terribly minimal, but it's there ^.^

 

elandriel

hello

kudos to vulajin for the nice analytical theorycraft

i am also a rogue considering the change to hemo post 2.3

two things i would like to ask though:

can we model rest of the gear to counter the loss of expertise from a 11/21/29 talent specc (my preferable one for raids)

meaning: belt of 100 deaths, fang of vashj as oh, shoulders from hydross and/or gloves of al'ar


and my more serious concern: the 10 charges seem awfully little to function properly in a 25 raid setup with so many physical dps out there :S can we make a model given a typical raid group setup of say 2 tanks, 1 dps warrior, 3 rogues, 1 enchancement shammy, 2 hunters (and pets) of hemo charge consumed? how long will boss stay without debuff between each hemo application ?

thanks in advance

keep up the good work

-Ela