[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 16

McTurok · 07/25/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Until there's solid proof that your second paragraph is at all accurate, asking why people are so insistent on it being good is a perfectly rational question.

And the hemo debuff isn't raid utility; all it is is damage. Don't mistake it for utility.

Kalman, that is why this thread was started, no? To see if it was at all viable. This is why many are now trying it out on their own in their 25 man raids with different gear and different raid class makeup.

How else are we going to get data to prove if it's a good idea or not? I see numerous WWS links of players sharing their results. Time will only tell. I'm all for trying new builds in PvE. It's part of what makes this game fun.

As for the "utility" comment, I should have said a buff to melee.

Kalman · 07/25/07, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ichichop

The 2 piece bonus benefits 11/28/22 more than combat.

*Very* arguable, given that combat will be benefiting from extra CP procs due to the bonus haste.

Ichichop · 07/25/07, 5:21 PM

Corrode, the fact that haste benefits serrated blades more than CP is one of the foundations of the viability of this build. I will try to pound out the math for it later, but someone else had this same premise and then later investigated and found that something like 90% of the extra damage from a haste bonus comes from white damage, not CP.

Please try to read the thread before arguing against the build's viability.

Tinuva · 07/25/07, 6:24 PM

I thing I like to say, though already proven. Is that any buff you get in the raid that give AP boost this spec even more than it boost a combat specced rogue.

I can see this especially when we swap in a fury warrior with a bm hunter or so in the group. Sure the BM hunter buff is very nice too, but that AP from the warrior is just amazing the difference it makes.

Tonight I played for the first time with a good combat rogue and I could see where we are almost doing the same damage out in the raid. Though our weapons are not comparable and only me has a DST.

For pvp this build is not your wack and hope you kill. However doing a CS->hemo/shiv/->rupture then sprint+vanish repeat is quite effective against a warrior solo.

Arena its GG you go out of your way to interupt the oppposing team healer or kill a fire mage.

I am going to await your final result though, been keeping an eye on this thread since page 1 started and enjoying every bit of theorycraft around this build, even though I skipped out on ghostly strike. Maybe a bad idea but getting combo points from dodge is kinda cool, was wondering if I should walk infront of trash that cleave with evasion on and steal some extra combo points to boost damage out on trash.

I am not sure if there is any boss where the adds do a cleave where one could abuse this, bud doing BF + Evasion on an add on Tidewalker is a nice steal for 1-2 free combo points while the AErs do their thing on the adds is fun too.

Gogge · 07/25/07, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by McTurok

Have you even bothered to read this whole thread?

Yes, I even did a ctrl+f and searched for "log" on every page in the thread but couldn't find any combat log links. Did you bother to read my first post in this thread? I even apologized beforehand if I missed it.

Originally Posted by McTurok

Have a rogue test it out in your raids and see? It's not a hard thing to do.

How hard is it for someone to post a log?

Ticia · 07/25/07, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gogge

Yes, I even did a ctrl+f and searched for "log" on every page in the thread but couldn't find any combat log links. Did you bother to read my first post in this thread? I even apologized beforehand if I missed it.

How hard is it for someone to post a log?

Try searching for 'Wow Web Stats' instead of 'log'. There are numerous logs posted in this thread, almost all are links to Lossendil's page in the form "Wow Web Stats" or something like that.

Edit: The post directly below the one you quoted has a log in it, eyes ftw.

Ichichop · 07/25/07, 7:47 PM

Well no, there are no combatlog.txt files posted here only WWS links. I can share out some of mine to you privately if you are interested, PM me your email and I will send you a tidewalker log.

gakutomagnum · 07/26/07, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ichichop

Wodin two items about T6:

1) 6% extra damage on special attacks will be a very small overall dps increase, you might find that 11/28/22 still outdamages deep combat at that gear level. The 2 piece bonus benefits 11/28/22 more than combat.
2) Why isn't hemo on that list of special attacks? Another glaring Blizzard oversight?

About as glaring as Mutilate not being added to Bonescythe before BC came out with that last patch before BC that added all the new 41pt talents.

Zaniel · 07/26/07, 1:17 AM

It happens. It also likely won't get fixed, which is regrettable.

Maurice2u · 07/26/07, 2:16 AM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

It happens. It also likely won't get fixed, which is regrettable.

Quite unfortunate. There are several items/talents that don't include Hemo, but include SS and/or Backstab, and that's either oversight or some really good math by a Blizz guy somewhere that knows what that magic "inflection point" in stats is that we are searching out here.

My gut tells me neglect, but I could be wrong.

Far as my take on what we've looked at so far:

The "utility" tem. This build can very well be looked at as added utility, and this is how.

At the very point where the 11/28/22 rogue does ~80DPS less than the standard Combat build equivalent, but is able to add that 80DPS back to othe raid via others, it reduces his threat generation and spreads it out over multiple members. IE: Better for tank, better for raid. That could be considered utility added. Reduced threat from a main DPS class.

From that point on, if this build's ratio of DPS vs standard combat continues to go up in this Hemo build's favor, it becomes a "buff" and "utility" as it adds DPS while having at least 80DPS of it not directly contribute to the rogues individual threat. Enough of that, it's semantics really.

With all that said, we have not clearly defined the exact point wherein (if at all):

A) The gear/stats/raid-makeup allow this build to be within 80DPS of the exact same character spec'd standard Combat

B) The variability of Boss types (bleed immunity) is enough to overwhelm the Hemo-charge/Rupture vs Evis./Serrated blades benefits. 2 of the 3 being mob type irrelevant makes this a harder question than first glance.

What we "do" know so far is that

A) Serrated Blades scales better than Combat Potency, both with gear/stats and with Haste.

B) Starting somewhere around Kara gear, the right team makeup "will" allow 11/28/22 to perform on par with standard Combat. (see posted WWS)

As we progress further down the subject with more and more data, it will simply be about finding the exact stats required. There will likely have to be some caviats of minimum stats for viability "with all charges of Hemo used" vs just on it's own. What we can safely say already though, is for people who want to use it, they should feel free to do so without fear of being horribly gimped (and may even come out better depending on gear/team).

Our gathered data and calculations have essentially green-lighted this for test by the individual user. If it works for your gear/team/fun, continue to use it. If it doesn't, that's ok too. What we don't need is blanket disregard w/o testing, or attempts to discourage people from trying to learn and do more. That's just about as useful as someone on the paladin tanking thread posting "paladin R healz, end o' thread".

Tinuva · 07/26/07, 4:22 AM

Here is a log of our raiding last night:

Wow Web Stats

Eshara is me: 11/28/22 with 1656ap 245hit rating 22.9% crit
Mostly Kara gear and where I dont have kara gear I have gear from heroic badges or exalted rewards, with DST and the 2 merciless glad swords.

Rodrigues: 19/42 specced combat/maces rogue without DST 290 hit rating somewhere in the 1600ap

Slashkill: I think 15/41/5 combat/daggers without DST 230 hit rating also close to 1600ap

Not sure if this is a good comparison but hopefully it will help a little.

Group composition did change, our 1st attempt on hydross I had a fury war in our group, but he was taken out for another healer for the later 2 attempts. He was back though for Tidewalker.

The whole night we did have a Enh shaman in our group though and sometimes on trash a hunter or feral druid but trash dont really count.

I still think any AP buff buffs me more than anything else with this spec as it just scales insanely well with AP, or maybe because I am missing the sweet spot of 1800ap unbuffed.

Kalman · 07/26/07, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by McTurok

Kalman, that is why this thread was started, no? To see if it was at all viable. This is why many are now trying it out on their own in their 25 man raids with different gear and different raid class makeup.

How else are we going to get data to prove if it's a good idea or not? I see numerous WWS links of players sharing their results. Time will only tell. I'm all for trying new builds in PvE. It's part of what makes this game fun.

As for the "utility" comment, I should have said a buff to melee.

Yes. And there's a world of difference between "seeing if it's viable" and jumping on people for expressing doubt. Stop doing the latter. People asking "Why are people so certain this is viable?" when the evidence is anything *but* certain is a perfectly reasonable question.

Originally Posted by Ichichop

Corrode, the fact that haste benefits serrated blades more than CP is one of the foundations of the viability of this build. I will try to pound out the math for it later, but someone else had this same premise and then later investigated and found that something like 90% of the extra damage from a haste bonus comes from white damage, not CP.

Please try to read the thread before arguing against the build's viability.

I have read the thread. I've seen people posting terrible math, I've seen people using faulty logic, and I've seen people generally behaving like posters from the official WoW forums.

Please try to stop doing it.

Yes. Most of the bonus from haste is in white damage rather than CP. Of course, combat vs. PvE hemo, how much is that 90% white-based going to gain from Serrated Blades? Is it enough to make up for the bonus damage from CP? Assuming the best possible case (going from 560 to 0 armor via SB), SB is adding ~5% to your white damage (going from a ~5% damage reduction to a 0% damage reduction).

Assuming the 90/10 split for how much of total bonus damage from a given amount of haste is white/CP based is accurate for a combat build:

Combat gains: .9 (white) + .1 (CP) = 1.0 - this is our control sample.
SB gains: .9/.95 = 0.947

Gee. That looks an *awful* lot like haste scaling CP better than SB, in the BEST possible situation, using your numbers. And I did that in about 10 seconds.

Again: I'm not saying the build is bad. I'm saying that I, and others, have very real doubts about some of the claims made here, and that expressing those doubts is in no way a bad thing.

edit: Not to mention, while you've repeatedly claimed "the large part of the bonus is from white damage, not CP-based damage", you've produced no evidence, mathematical or practical, that I can find. While I would tend to believe it to be true for a number of reasons, if you're going to repeatedly say this, provide the evidence (or a link to it.)

McTurok · 07/26/07, 7:35 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Yes. And there's a world of difference between "seeing if it's viable" and jumping on people for expressing doubt. Stop doing the latter. People asking "Why are people so certain this is viable?" when the evidence is anything *but* certain is a perfectly reasonable question.

Why don't you go back and re-read those posters I quoted and then ak yourself again who was being "reasonable".

Originally Posted by Andeh

.....
So why the hardon for a raid Hemo build? Is it just because people are desperate to be different?

If you think that is expressing doubt and reasonable, you are just as big of an ass as Andeh. His post was nothing but a trolling attempt.

If you have a problem with my posts, report me to a Forum Admin and they can deal with it.

Rinced · 07/26/07, 9:03 AM

Just tried this spec and I was amazed.
My cycles where much cleaner (no CP takes out random factors) and +1 vanish is a huge advantage in aggro fights (and adds more survivability on wipes

).

We're currently raiding without a feral druid and I was wondering wether this build is still viable without mangle. I haven't seen a big difference.

As already said the main factor of this build is serrated blade wich increases the white DPS, hemo is needed to compensate the lack of CP to maintain your cycles.

Yes. Most of the bonus from haste is in white damage rather than CP. Of course, combat vs. PvE hemo, how much is that 90% white-based going to gain from Serrated Blades? Is it enough to make up for the bonus damage from CP? Assuming the best possible case (going from 560 to 0 armor via SB), SB is adding ~5% to your white damage (going from a ~5% damage reduction to a 0% damage reduction).

Assuming the 90/10 split for how much of total bonus damage from a given amount of haste is white/CP based is accurate for a combat build:

Combat gains: .9 (white) + .1 (CP) = 1.0 - this is our control sample.
SB gains: .9/.95 = 0.947

I suppose the 90/10 split is not a static value and scaling aswell (white gets advantage with higher stats), what makes the whole thing a bit more difficult.

Gogge · 07/26/07, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ichichop

Well no, there are no combatlog.txt files posted here only WWS links. I can share out some of mine to you privately if you are interested, PM me your email and I will send you a tidewalker log.

Done, I doubt it'll show anything special but It'll satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks.