geome

The amount added by hemo shouldn't change too much Elandriel. Either way, only 10 can possibly be consumed per application. You can predict that they'll usually go fully consumed quickly in any environment.


V V Down below. Zomg Khaeos

 

Cervani

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I switched things up a bit, considering a couple of factors that I myself have found myself using/relying on during my raiding.

My guild is a primary raiding guild (Hyjal/BT) with a heavy PvP atmosphere (We pvp basically any chance we get). So I took the 3rd version of Vulajins Hemo Sword build and adapted it a bit for a hybrid build of both Pvp as well as PvE without sacrificing any of the dps elements that made its DPS and utility worthwhile.

Assassination - Remained the same.

Combat - Removed the 5/5 LR, and went with 3/3 Improved Gouge and 2/2 Imp. SS. In a PvP enviroment where SS would likely scale better then Hemo (Hemo shines in a long term duration enviro, and PvP fights rarely last more then a minute against one opponent) I opted for the changed. Imp. Gouge also helps with the entire 5.5sec, which is bare minimal time to restealth in a PvP situation. Everything else remained the same.

Subtlety - 5/5 Opp was changed to 5/5 MoD. This was more of a PvP decision, as the one time use of Garrote in certain raid situations (Mainly bosses, unless you use vanish to re-garrote yet again) was not considered optimal enough to go for 5/5 Opp. This is also a sword build, not a dagger build.

3/3 Elusiveness was changed to 2/3 Setup. This was a raid optimal change. as for the rogues in my guild in our two primary raid enviroments (Hyjal/BT) we use CoS basically every time it's up. 2/3 Setup adds a 30% chance to recieve a combo point out of a fully resisted spell or dodged attack, optimal for a rogue that uses CoS VERY often as well as the rogue that in a raid enviroment faces off against bosses that constantly turn directions or move and therefor may take a dodgable frontal attack. Some may argue that the reduced cooldown on Vanish may be a higher raid utility, but a smart rogue would be able to keep under the threat threshold either way and not have to use it more then it's usual use.

Everything else remained the same.

All in all, I plan on testing this out in ZA when my guildmates who switched to the PTR plan on raiding it. I'll be more then happy to post WWS as well as SS of SW once the raid is through.

Please feel free to pick apart the changes I made, or approve disapprove.

Edit: Sup Glem, it's Khaeos from Vek

 

OengusSC

I've been watching this thread and considering a spec into hemo come patch 2.3 myself. I've done some dirty math using the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet (version 2.2.0.13).

My current combat build and gear provide a raid buffed theoretical DPS of 1490.21 using this spreadsheet.

If I delete my assassination and combat talents necessary to pickup hemo (considering a 11/27/23 or 11/27/22 build) and grab serrated blades and hemo my theoretical DPS drops to 1366.83 (2 points WE) and 1353.38 (1 point WE). I didn't check to include the hemo debuff, instead I've been adding 102.85 DPS (360/3.5) to my totals to factor my total raid contribution DPS.

My big hangup is calculating the Dirty Deeds buff. I've been using a flat 3.5% and 7% yellow damage buff in my calculations, depending on 1 or 2 points in DD. How extensively has Dirty Deeds been tested? Is it affecting all yellow damage? More specifically, is it affecting rupture? In my calculations if I only have Dirty Deeds buff my hemo attacks, these builds fall just short of over coming my combat build (by 15-20 DPS). If the dirty deeds damage modifier is being applied to rupture as well, then these builds may slightly out perform my combat build.

My apologies if these questions have already been answered in above posts. I've tried to keep up on all the posts, but may have missed something.

 

geome

Yes, the new dirty deeds is for all yellow damage under 35%

 

Tenge

Edit: beaten

For modelling purposes, I think what really matters is whether the buff is completely consumed before it's reapplied. If it is fully consumed, then you can model it as (36 extra dmg * 10 charges) * (whatever other armor, crit, etc mods), every 3.5 seconds. Again, this is just some very rough math to illustrate the point - Relentless Strikes and other energy modifiers will change this a bit. So even if Hemo isn't affecting every single melee hit on its target, as long as it's being fully consumed before you apply it again, it's receiving the maximum return.

 

elandriel

What i meant is that I would like to see Blizzard upping the charges to 20. This won't affect the skill at all for pvp but will make it much more viable for pve.

 

• Aldriana

I would assert that with the new changes in 2.3, Hemo is already viable. Is it the highest DPS spec out there? No, it's not. But it's not far behind, and picks up some nice abilities relative to Combat Swords; with prep and Slight of Hand your aggro management is better, and with the Hemo debuff you help your tanks aggro generation. Hence, unless you're defining viable as "as good as the best known spec in every possible way" - under which defenition no build other than combat swords would be "viable" - Hemo already is. So, personally, I don't think that any further buffs are needed.

 

PSGarak

With the addition of backstab to Agression, combat daggers may be equal or better than combat swords now. Of course, that doesn't really change your point. The main question is "how much worse than 'optimal' is still considered 'viable'?" This is usually answered on a guild-by-guild basis, but it would be nice to have a % for each off-spec, just as a benchmark.

 

• Aldriana

The Aggression change isn't enough to let Combat Daggers match up with Combat Swords; it's only about a 2% DPS increase on the whole, and Combat Daggers was a good 5-10% behind before.

It *does*, however, catch Combat Daggers up with Combat Fists and Combat Maces as raid specs; it's just still behind Combat Swords and the hybrid xxx/sword specs.

What you see when you look at specs accross the board is that any build with a sword in the OH is better than any build without. This includes 11/28/22 Hemo/Swords, which is probably the #2 spec in total DPS output right now (behind 19/41+1 Combat Swords).

As for what would be required to equalize the specs: I actually made a post on this about half an hour ago in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet Thread; it is here if you wish to read it.

 

aleyro

Lots of great discussion going on here; I'm glad to see rogues potentially getting an alternative to the standard combat builds.

According to my napkin math, the answer to this is a clear no, but I thought I might pose the question anyway for confirmation:

Are there any raid-viable shadowstep builds?

at first glance, the threat reduction/damage boost, especially now that its applied to any attack, seems attractive; picking up 10% ap and 15% agi on the way there seems interesting as well. however, 41 sub means either completely scrapping precision/dual weild (which seems insane), or completely scrapping malice/relentless. is there any way to make this work? Should I ever let a rogue raid with 41 sub?

 

• Aldriana

The changes make Shadowstep *less* gimpy for PvE, but I think it's still pretty weak on the whole; best option would probably be something along the lines of 11/9/41.

 

frigginwizard

if you went with 11-9-41
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
you can keep relentless strikes and 4/5 precision with this. You lose lethality, but frankly that talent is over rated anyways. The Big loss here is duel wield spec, which is a pretty big loss, but you gain 10%ap and 15% agi, so although the heavier combat build is better I dont think its a huge jump down to play as shadowstep.

 

• Aldriana

I think you actually take 3/3 Imp SnD and 1/5 Precision instead, unfortunately; you won't be able to sustain a decent cycle without it. So you're losing 4% hit and DWSpec to get high end subtlety, which, while not a *terrible* tradeoff, is certainly not a favorable one.

 

Maurice2u

Hemo and things at about the level in the Subt tree we have tested pretty extensively here and found them viable, mostly due to being able to incorporate a large portion of things that also make PvE specs work, such as dual-weild, sword spec, relentless strikes.

As far as Shadowstep goes, however, I think Blizz is way out to lunch here. The change in the talent would have been much better suited as some type of resilience/armor penetration or the like. There is almost little-to-no way 41pt Subtlety builds will be justifiable for consistent raiding use. Moreover, I do not believe the rogue community was ever asking for it to be. Once again they have ignored what people have asked for, and offered something that an exceptionally small percentage of players want, even when offered.

Many of the other changes are quite welcome, but threat reduction to Shadowstep is a complete MISS imho.

 

◊ Kalman

That and Shadowstep itself received a minimum range, making it nearly useless for sustained DPS while raiding.

 

songster

Even with no minimum range, it's useless. 10 energy to add 20% to your next ability is a net DPE loss for any ability that costs less than 50e - which is all of them. Plus the fact that it will insert an extra GCD into the cycle, which can be disruptive if things are tight.

 

Ghost

Shadowstep has no GCD, and using it to make your Rupture 20% better (on top of the 30% better from Serrated Blades already) seems good. Does this make up for losing duel wield spec? Clearly not, but its probably the best use you will get out of Shadowstep in a raid.

Minimum range is crap - that really needs to be removed if the ability is going to have any value for anyone ever...

 

• Vulajin

Using Shadowstep on Rupture would actually lower the DPE on the ability, and thus would be a bad idea for sustained DPS. As Songster indicated, there are three abilities you can use with Shadowstep that will not actually decrease in DPE: untalented Garrote (which, if you have Shadowstep, you'll certainly have Dirty Deeds; and anyway, you can't Shadowstep+Garrote in the middle of a fight unless you also Vanish), Backstab, and Ambush.

 

Ghost

Sure, it does lower the DPE, but since you can only have one rupture on a target at a time, there is something to be said for making that Rupture the best possible, within reason. Plus you have a limited amount of combo points available, so making those combo points the best possible may also be worth some small amount of energy.

The real question should be, "is 20% better Rupture worth 28.5% of a single Hemorrhage?" Unless your hemo is hitting for pretty absurd amounts I think it is.

 

◊ Kalman

Lowering DPE only guarantees lower DPS on a spammable skill. After all, if once every 30 seconds you could use a 90 energy move dealing 80k damage, but in between could only use 1 energy moves dealing 1 damage, you'd want to use that Shadowstep on your 90 energy move, obviously, even if it lowers the DPE of that skill, since its still a better use of the energy than what you would have gotten out of it.

Ghost has it right: if 10 energy spent on Shadowstep boosts Rupture by more than 10 energy spent on your spammable (i.e. Hemo) then you Shadowstep->Rupture.

Except for that pesky minimum range. Making the discussion moot.

 

• frmorrison

I like the Hemo buff, but don't like only having 10 charges up on the mob. I understand that 30 is too much, but I think 15 (over the PTR's 10) would add that extra utility to make it worth it to have a Rogue spec Hemo.

 

sltyntzhrt

I dont mind the 10 charges but instead of the flat 36 damage they should have added weapon damage. Maybe 10 weapon damage? Not sure of a balanced number. Would have made hemo valuability much more apparent to the non rogue classes.

Edit: And helped with druid dps as i know blizzard is trying to find a way to increase it cause the HotW change and how much FAP has changed on the weapons n the PTR.

 

Draanimrev

I always loved raiding as hemo. I was doing it for quite a while during our Naxx days before the expansion. I'm not the best theorycrafter, so I normally just read what everyone else has already tested/posted and usually believe it.

However, I finally decided "What the hell" I want to see just HOW bad Hemo is. So I respeced 11/20/30 and pulled out my Rod of the Sun King/Swiftsteel Bludgeon and zoned myself into Black Temple.

I only have one WWS report and it's from Gorefiend, but I'll tell you what, I was pretty impressed how it kept up marginally well. I don't think I would use it on Non-Farm content, simply because I know even with a Season 2 MH/Season 1 OH sword combo I can do more overall DPS, but it's still a start, and gives me hope for the patch.

Here is the WWS. I hope it can maybe help some of you guys get an idea of what Hemo can/can't do.

Wow Web Stats

 

Aereus

So how much do you guys think a "raid hemo" build would be behind combat swords for DPS come 2.3 then? And how much of a TPS gain would that be for the tank? (Which would allow everyone else without an aggro wipe to DPS harder)

 

banned

I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.

I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.

I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).

I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).

These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:

hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.

combat: 965 dps

I also noted that I use up 3-5 hemo charges myself between each hemo. And with about 1 hemo every 4 seconds (since energy was used also on rupture and SnD), that's 5-7 hemo charges for the raid. I think crit and armor damage reduction roughly cancel out eachother for the hemo 36 damage, so the hemo debuff will give the raid about 55 dps, while I lost 70 dps compared to combat.