Yyou still need more reasons to go heavier in subtetly. Make Deadliness-talent provide 15% ap instead, I mean afterall we arent warriors with 460ap shout nor druids who only stacks massive ap. Arenarogues with 1300 ap wont notice the diffrence but it should make subtetly more viable in pve.
What i meant is that I would like to see Blizzard upping the charges to 20. This won't affect the skill at all for pvp but will make it much more viable for pve.
You are aware that the damage per charge would be lowered again if they did this? Probably by roughly half, so down to 18 damage/charge.
Overall, this would rather make hemo LESS viable for PvE again then MORE viable.
Do NOT be eluded by the times hemo is not up because all charges are used up. The only thing that matters is the total amount of damage from these charges per hemo application. No matter how long the debuff is active or between how many charges it's divided, it's still 360 damage max (excluding crits) per 3.5 seconds
10 charges is actually a perfect amount, since it will basically guarantee you that all charges will be used before your next strike, even in 10 men raids.
Hemo debuff received a buff by going from 300 to 360 damage in total (non-crit) and at the same time received a buff by making it less raid reliant, by spreading the damage over less charges.
At the same time, increasing the amount of charges back up again from 10 to 20, would mean that a lower percentage of all charges will be used in smaller parties, raids or when soloing, so a lower percentage of the 360 damage, directly affecting the rogues' DPS. The change to hemo is a huge buff for the PvP rogue, who will now also benefit from the debuff. Doubling the amount of charges again will basically mean that the PvP rogue gets only half the benefit from these charges in PvP.
I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.
I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.
I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).
I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).
These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:
hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.
combat: 965 dps
Banned, so you were using the 2.6 speed MG slicer for these tests? Very interesting stuff. I have the maces myself, and am very tempted to try out the switch (but the PTR transfer isn't working anymore).
Also, I'm a little confused about some of your sub talent choices. Are we attempting to compare these builds in a PVE DPS setting? If so, I think Dirty Tricks and Initiative are pretty bad talents, and should be replaced by Sleight of Hand and Setup.
I modeled the new Hemorrhage in my personal DPS spreadsheet using the following method:
3) The hemo/swords build with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1485.16 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.77 (+2.89%) over the combat swords build. Note that Dirty Deeds is simply modeled as a 10% increase per point on special damage 35% of the time (thus it is slightly overvalued).
4) The hemo/swords build with 1/2 W.Ex. and 2/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1484.44 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.04 (+2.84%) over the combat swords build. Recall that Dirty Deeds is slightly overvalued; even still, trading one point of Weapon Expertise for one point of Dirty Deeds is found to be suboptimal. From now on, therefore, we shall only consider builds with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds.
Conclusions: 11/28/22 swords may very well be quite competitive with combat swords for DPS. It certainly might not be a bad investment to have one Hemo rogue in a raid, depending on quite a lot of factors of your physical DPS classes, including their crit rates, abilities used, and armor penetration. 11/20/30 will be slightly inferior to 11/28/22 with swords, but for other weapon types, it will be superior. Finally, 2/2 Weapon Expertise is likely more important and a higher priority for any combat/sub hybrid build than 2/2 Dirty Deeds.
(edit) Additionally, it does seem that 2.6 is sufficient speed for Hemo to function, even though it's not what we would normally consider "slow." [Blade of Infamy] proves to be roughly as good for an 11/28/22 build as [Talon of Azshara] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]. Of course, the MH Warglaive is by far the best Hemo weapon, but even with the Talon, Hemo damage is quite comparable to combat swords (at least assuming I've modeled it even remotely accurately).
sorry for cutting up ur post, but i just wanted to note that the 11/20/30 spec is probably better dps by using 11/21/29 with blade flurry and only 4/5 deadliness.
also, would the hemo sword build be better at 11/27/23, keeping 2/2 wEx like you said, but dumping 1 point from sword spec to get 2/2 dirty deeds?
Banned, so you were using the 2.6 speed MG slicer for these tests? Very interesting stuff. I have the maces myself, and am very tempted to try out the switch (but the PTR transfer isn't working anymore).
Also, I'm a little confused about some of your sub talent choices. Are we attempting to compare these builds in a PVE DPS setting? If so, I think Dirty Tricks and Initiative are pretty bad talents, and should be replaced by Sleight of Hand and Setup.
Initiative needs to be in there to get to the next tier, not to mention most people open with Garrote and you get that 75% chance to get an extra CP. Dirty Tricks can be replaced by SoH but if you are going this spec you are probaly doing both PVE and PVP (otherwise just go combat swords/maces), then at that point you would have to argue whats better DT or SoH? SoH does reduce crit chance by 2% (helps out resilience) and that feint buff (but who uses feint when raiding), then you have DT which will save your butt in PVP and let you open up a lot faster (saves energy after Sap/Blind)
I've never raided hemo, so I really can't say, but generally it seems that talents that only benefit your opener are less useful in long instance fights than in pvp or solo pve.
Even though I wrote the original "Toward a theory of PvE Hemo" post referred to by the OP I'm embarrassed to say that until a couple of days ago I was unaware of this thread and the fact that people had been both gathering data and doing theorycrafting on the build. Nor had I actually tried it myself.
But I was encouraged by these findings to give it a whirl last night and was pretty pleased with the result. One night's data is not conclusive, but I was quite satisified with the apparent results, even before factoring in the raid benefit of the hemo debuff. Additionally, I found prep quite useful on some BT trash.
The only really surprising (for me) result was the % of total damage that was white. 65-70% typically, and a whopping 77% on Shade of Akama.
I am looking for a reason to go Hemo for PVE. But I see some of these build recommendations for 2.3 missing some talents that would synergize very well with Hemo IMO...particularly for PvE.
I am talking about the 11/27/23 build in particular...Which seems to be the best PvE DPS build...
Why no Opportunity? a 20% buff to Garrote? Sounds like a perfect opener to me...
and I think you have to spend a point in Prep...which is such a great utility talent, I cannot see why you wouldn't...with Vanish you can restealth in a boss fight to reply Garrote again...Evasion...Blade Flurry?
In fact with Elusiveness talent...you could possibly hit Garrote 3? 4? times in a boss fight...Wouldn't this be a nice DPS boost? Even moreso to a boss under 35% HP with new Dirty Deeds Buff...
Intiative as well would likely grant additional CP as well...I see that as useful as CS or Gar would be the likely openers to majority of foes...going into 2/3pt SnD right off the bat
The one question and negative I potentially see of the 1pt in Prep is the loss of 1/2 in Weap expertise....How much of loss would this be? Does having higher +to hit offset this loss by enough?
Also what is the value of 4/5 Sword Spec over 4/5 Deadliness. Since calculations seem to imply that with added AP (1470-1514 it appears) spamming Hemo will out DPS SS on a per basis...
My own situation is that I don't have 2 worthy swords presently to make Sword spec worthwhile..So dumping 4pts into a talent that would only have 50% benefit seems like a waste to me...down the road...this would change of course...That is unless...for 2.3 Hemo build...Vindicator\Latro's 4/5 Sword Spec would outperform Vindicator\Malchazzen 4/5 Deadliness...
Another possibility is dropping out of Assn tree altogether and thereby maxing out key talents in Combat\Sub for Hemo...Not sure what CP generation would be like however...
You could dump pts in either Master of Sub for extra 10% damage or in new buffed Cheat Death...which for PvE...while a nice ability I see as more limited.....I think they key for any PvE Sub build would be maximizing attacks from Stealth...
also, would the hemo sword build be better at 11/27/23, keeping 2/2 wEx like you said, but dumping 1 point from sword spec to get 2/2 dirty deeds?
Interesting question. If each point of sword spec is worth 1%, the question is how much a point of dirty deeds is worth. With the change to DD (is it confirmed?) you will do an extra 20% * 35% * (yellow damage%). So solving for 0.2 * 0.35 * X > 0.01 gives us a threshold of around 14%. If more than 14% of your damage is from specials, then it's probably worth the switch.
My own recent WWS reports using 11/28/22 have Hemo doing 19% of my damage.
Makes me want to go back and kill Razorgore.
Edit: Oops, DD gives only a 10% bonus to specials when target is below 35%. So the threshold is really about 28.5%. Nevermind.
I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.
I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.
I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).
I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).
These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:
hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.
combat: 965 dps
I also noted that I use up 3-5 hemo charges myself between each hemo. And with about 1 hemo every 4 seconds (since energy was used also on rupture and SnD), that's 5-7 hemo charges for the raid. I think crit and armor damage reduction roughly cancel out eachother for the hemo 36 damage, so the hemo debuff will give the raid about 55 dps, while I lost 70 dps compared to combat.
Interesting, but just one thought. Given the level difference between yourself and them, is the armor penetration effect of the hemo build actually being accounted for? Unless I am mistaken (and I may be), with a significant level gap between the attacker and the defender like that, the defender's armor is essentially irrelevant, with attacks pretty much hitting for their full, unmitigated damage.
Interesting, but just one thought. Given the level difference between yourself and them, is the armor penetration effect of the hemo build actually being accounted for? Unless I am mistaken (and I may be), with a significant level gap between the attacker and the defender like that, the defender's armor is essentially irrelevant, with attacks pretty much hitting for their full, unmitigated damage.
its actually being accounted for MORE than it would be on a typical level 70 mob, or for that matter a lvl 73 boss. the more armor a target has, the smaller % increase you get from armor pen, the less armor a target has, the greater the % increase you get from armor pen (until the target reaches 0 armor, after which additional points of armor pen are wasted).
its actually being accounted for MORE than it would be on a typical level 70 mob, or for that matter a lvl 73 boss. the more armor a target has, the smaller % increase you get from armor pen, the less armor a target has, the greater the % increase you get from armor pen (until the target reaches 0 armor, after which additional points of armor pen are wasted).
That's if the armor is being taken into account at all. I'm not so sure of that with such a level gap. I may be under an erroneous understanding of the level dynamics of combat calculation, but I thought that to some degree level comes into play in determining the effectiveness of armor mitigation, and if the gap between attacker and defender is sufficiently broad in the attacker's favor, it's all but irrelevant.
That's if the armor is being taken into account at all. I'm not so sure of that with such a level gap. I may be under an erroneous understanding of the level dynamics of combat calculation, but I thought that to some degree level comes into play in determining the effectiveness of armor mitigation, and if the gap between attacker and defender is sufficiently broad in the attacker's favor, it's all but irrelevant.
It would have to be an extremely broad gap. Servants of Razelikh, et al. will definitely reduce your damage to a non-negligible extent via armor. Recall that because of the way the armor curve scales, a little bit of armor is worth quite a lot when your armor is low, so that even if a Servant of Razelikh has, say, one-third the armor of a raid boss, it still has more than one-third as much mitigation.
Why no Opportunity? a 20% buff to Garrote? Sounds like a perfect opener to me...
and I think you have to spend a point in Prep...which is such a great utility talent, I cannot see why you wouldn't...with Vanish you can restealth in a boss fight to reply Garrote again...Evasion...Blade Flurry?
In fact with Elusiveness talent...you could possibly hit Garrote 3? 4? times in a boss fight...Wouldn't this be a nice DPS boost? Even moreso to a boss under 35% HP with new Dirty Deeds Buff...
Garrote- (AP*.18)+810
/w Opp- ((AP*.18)+810)*.20
2000AP-
1170 normal (195 tick)
1404 Opp (234 tick) [+234 extra damage]
Yes it will boost your DPS for 18 secs, but it is really lackluster over the course of a boss fight. If you do ANY pvp at all, I wouldnt pass on MOD over an extra 468 damage in a boss fight. If you solely PVE, every little bit of extra DPS helps of course.
I was trying to figure out the difference between DD and 2/2 WEx as well as a result of Vulajin's post (#384)
Originally Posted by Vulajin
Finally, 2/2 Weapon Expertise is likely more important and a higher priority for any combat/sub hybrid build than 2/2 Dirty Deeds.
DD is +20% dmg to all specials for a target under 35%. So with specials taking about 40% of my total damage, that 20% dmg increase translates to about 2.8% dmg increase
Whereas 2/2 WEx is -2.5% dodge, which translates to approximately +2.5% damage (I think... this might be where my understanding is wrong).
So just from that alone, it looks to me as if DD > 2/2 WEx.
Plus there's the fact that through itemization, we can achieve that Expertise skill easily, whereas a +2.8% damage increase is always a bonus on top of your gear.
There's also a secondary effect on WEx where dodged attacks eat a little bit of energy. I think it's 20% for normal attacks, 100% for finishers base. I don't know how that enters the equations. But you are right, there is an expertise cap that should be accounted for.
Just based on logical thought it would seem that 11/21/29 with maces (rod of sun king would be my choice till I get MH warglaive) mainhand and something like blade of savagery OH would be the best possible dps as hemo.
4/5 deadliness is an 8% increase in AP which scales better with the higher end gear you get, I have 2000 ap unbuffed, rather then getting sword spec I can use the proc on the rod of the sun king to my advantage along with its 2.7 speed.
Also 4/5 deadliness and 1 point in bladeflurry seems like it would be a dps increase as you can use it twice in almost every fight, some fights up to 7 times (illidan) thats over a minute and a half of 20% increase attack speed, vs 40 ap (2000 ap pre deadliness)
Some other things to think about when using deadliness are buffs like unleashed rage which also increase your AP by % amounts, making deadliness scale even better.
If anyone could help ellaborate on this subject more that would be great, in my mind it seems like this would be more dps then the swordspec hemo build. (when the patch comes out I will be testing various specs of hemo in raids and I can post WWS to help)
I am curious if anyone can verify whether or not the new Dirty Deeds buffs ALL damage below 35% or just specials. The current patch notes seem a bit ambiguous to me. It may be the deciding factor on whether I would switch to Hemo or not. Has anyone tested it on the PTR?
DD is +20% dmg to all specials for a target under 35%. So with specials taking about 40% of my total damage, that 20% dmg increase translates to about 2.8% dmg increase
Whereas 2/2 WEx is -2.5% dodge, which translates to approximately +2.5% damage (I think... this might be where my understanding is wrong).
So just from that alone, it looks to me as if DD > 2/2 WEx.
Plus there's the fact that through itemization, we can achieve that Expertise skill easily, whereas a +2.8% damage increase is always a bonus on top of your gear.
Comments?
Well this results in an easy equation i'd assume. What Timeframes are we talking about so that 20% more style dps (your 2.8% overall dps) from Deadly Deeds for 35% of the time is more dps than 2.5% overall dps for 100% of the time.
If you average the Deadly Deeds gain over 100% of the timeframe you gain 0.98% dps.
Well, WEx works 100% of the time, so its 2.5 times the gain. This is totally wrong though if Dirty Deeds is applied to all damage though and not only to styles, which needs to be confirmed first though.
Banned, so you were using the 2.6 speed MG slicer for these tests? Very interesting stuff. I have the maces myself, and am very tempted to try out the switch (but the PTR transfer isn't working anymore).
Also, I'm a little confused about some of your sub talent choices. Are we attempting to compare these builds in a PVE DPS setting? If so, I think Dirty Tricks and Initiative are pretty bad talents, and should be replaced by Sleight of Hand and Setup.
MG slicer, yes.
I made the build for the sole purpose of hitting these low level mobs, who never dodges anything anyway, so WeX wouldn't had made any difference. I wanted to try Dirty Deeds though, since it's a new talent. Also, Seight of Hand does nothing in a solo situation, and Setup would give me an unproportional amount of combo points, tainting the test.
Originally Posted by Calidar
Interesting, but just one thought. Given the level difference between yourself and them, is the armor penetration effect of the hemo build actually being accounted for? Unless I am mistaken (and I may be), with a significant level gap between the attacker and the defender like that, the defender's armor is essentially irrelevant, with attacks pretty much hitting for their full, unmitigated damage.
With a 5p untalented EA, a Gouge wound't do the full 105 damage (I think it was 101), so it does have some armor. Gouge did 84-85 damage with no EA, which is a 20% damage reduction.
I seriously doubt they'd do that... that would remove like 50% of the novelty of going hemo. Other 50% being that it costs 5 energy less than SS. If they infact have done it, or would.. I would just go Combat/Subtlety with SS instead of Hemorrhage.
I am curious if anyone can verify whether or not the new Dirty Deeds buffs ALL damage below 35% or just specials. The current patch notes seem a bit ambiguous to me. It may be the deciding factor on whether I would switch to Hemo or not. Has anyone tested it on the PTR?
The tooltip on the PTR still refers to specials only, and testing it didn't seem to show a noticable difference against mobs under 35% for white damage. But that's hard to test, especially against non-elite mobs that die very quickly...
However, rupture ticks on the 1st build of the PTR were an obvious way for me to see the damage difference. But just having tested it on the latest PTR build, I found that my rupture ticks were exactly the same pre and post 35%.
Pre 35% with 207 per tick
Post 35% with 207 per tick
I've reported it on the WoW forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...374969&sid=1#0
Out of curiousity, do poisons count as specials?
I didn't think to check until now when I'm posting this.
Well this results in an easy equation i'd assume. What Timeframes are we talking about so that 20% more style dps (your 2.8% overall dps) from Deadly Deeds for 35% of the time is more dps than 2.5% overall dps for 100% of the time.
If you average the Deadly Deeds gain over 100% of the timeframe you gain 0.98% dps.
Well, WEx works 100% of the time, so its 2.5 times the gain. This is totally wrong though if Dirty Deeds is applied to all damage though and not only to styles, which needs to be confirmed first though.
Sorry, I'm not too sure what you're getting at...
The way I arrived at the DD dmg increase was 35% health x 40% special damage x 20% increase of special damage. With that 35% health variable as the time frame for which DD is active. So in that way, the 2.8% increased dmg already, by my understanding, is a calculation of the total 100% time frame.
Well an easy way to test this would be to not skill DD and attack those blasted lands mobs (preferrably with those grey weapons that range from 1-3 damage) and look at the hemo/rupture/poison damage values. Since you don't have DD, you can beat them for an undefinite timeframe to be sure about your values.
Then, vanish, skill those 2 points into DD, and do the same test again, ignoring any value above 35% of the mob health.
I'd do this myself if I had the time, unfortunatley today it won't happen.
The numbers banned posted seem kinda odd to me, because I did some small tests myself earlier on the PTR and Hemo always came out on top. Since my test size was only about 4 minutes I decided to go back and get some more data and here's what I've got:
The Combat Sword Build has some Points in Imp. and Vile Poison, but I didn't use any poisons, so the gain should be about 10 DPS compared to Hemo.
Also the Servant has 1% HP pretty much all the time, but since Rupture doesn't seem to be effected by DD this would only lower my DPS by 26 DPS.
Overall the difference seems to be only 3 DPS in favor of Combat, not counting the benefits of the hemo stacks, that I don't consume myself.
Did I mess up the circles too bad? With both specs being this close I feel like I'm missing something.
10/23/07, 6:44 AM
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