For me rupture indeed got the DD bonus, not dynamically if the health went below 35% in the middle between ticks. I had to apply rupture after the mob was below 35%.
I looked at your WWS stats, and in the combat case your average rupture tick is 190.
Apply the Serrated Blades bonus, 130% * 190 = 247. Then apply the DD bonus, 120% * 247 = 296.
The WWS stats from the hemo case shows that your average rupture tick is 297.
But other than that, I see that you have way better gear than me, especially a lot more AP, and a slower weapon, that may be a reason hemo works better for you.
Current game mechanics "lock in" DOT damage upon application. Each tick checks the target that its on for debuffs, but does not check the applicant for anything like AP or multiplicative buffs. So rupture (or poisons) will not be affected by DD unless applied post-35%.
That bug notice isn't very helpful =P. We know it's not working, but we don't know in what way, or what the intended functionality is. I would assume it's slated to be fixed before (or upon) going live. I would not be surprised to see 35% damage at 20% hp, like execute range or molten fury.
I've currently got dragonstrike Mh and MGQ OH, would I get more DPS out of taking sword spec with these weapons or the 8% ap? I'm thinking the ap, since it would benefit all of my attacks as opposed to sword spec.
BF is a huge melee boost on mutiple mobs, it wins hands down. SwSpec is ~5% damage boost when 5/5 so safe to assume 4/5 would be ~4% increase. People saying the new WEx is about 2.8% increase would mean a total of 6.8% increase going that route. Deadliness scales with gear, so can range from 170 to 220AP (or more). Would that overcome the damage boost from SwSpec/WEx? And is losing BF worth it?
BF is a huge melee boost on mutiple mobs, it wins hands down. SwSpec is ~5% damage boost when 5/5 so safe to assume 4/5 would be ~4% increase. People saying the new WEx is about 2.8% increase would mean a total of 6.8% increase going that route. Deadliness scales with gear, so can range from 170 to 220AP (or more). Would that overcome the damage boost from SwSpec/WEx? And is losing BF worth it?
When I scoped these two exact builds out via the Rogue DPS spreadsheet, they were nearly identical DPS. Of course 11/27/23 takes the edge due to having Blade Flurry, and I would probably go that route.
using Rod of the Sun King MH and Blade of Savagery offhand
my unbuffed stats are 302hit rating, 2003ap, 30.50% crit, I also have 4 piece tier 6 bonus.
My main reasoning for choosing this over swords is the fact that Rod of the Sun King is the best hemo weapon till the MH warglaive, better then my Blade of Infamy that I currently use with 19/42/0 combat swords.
Hey why are all these sample raiding builds skipping Setup?
I'm of the opinion that Setup is pretty good for raiding, at least compared with some of the other opening-specific Subtlety talents. Setup with Cloak of Shadows gives you a nice chunk of combo points every minute or so on a caster/aoe boss. I'm thinking Maiden, Nightbane, Illhoof, Netherspite.
I don't think there is a good way to model the CP gain from Setup, because the amount of spells you resist varys way too much. Also having random CPs added doesn't really help your dps, since it either messes up your circles or just adds CPs if you already have 5.
Besides I personally wouldn't try to eat spells with CloS, just to get CP.. it's still only 90% so you might get unlucky and die, or take up a lot more healing than you already do.
Setup is 45% chance to get combo point at its best which ain't really that great. Even with CloS you might not get any combo points from setup and usually when you get those cp's just mess up the cycles. It's just too unreliable for real use and its 3 talent points. I would myself much rather use them to Elusiveness.
question: why do u guys always spend 2 points in dirty deeds?
on ptr it gives only 10% more dmg althoug u spend 2 points,so i would spend 1 point in dirty and 1 point in prep.
Basically, I grabbed some gray vendor maces to test whether the hemo debuff would be affected by the DD buff (which it didn't), and noticed that the dirty deeds damage buff wasn't factoring in at <35%, but rather <20%. Even when it did kick in, it didn't apply to anything but special attacks.
I'm wondering if the two bugs are related though. If people are trying to test rupture by applying a new rupture when the mob gets below 35%, they may not see any change because of the first bug. I'll test it if I get the time, but someone may want to try rupture above and below 20%, not 35%. Rupture may be working with DD just fine, it just all stems back to DD not kicking in at the proper value.
Setup is too situational when raiding to properly build it into a spreadsheet. I personally took it anyway, because it is a good CP generator for everyday grinding, and have little use for lower cooldowns of Vanish since I have 2 of those anyway. But it's not your typical DPS talent.
question: why do u guys always spend 2 points in dirty deeds?
on ptr it gives only 10% more dmg althoug u spend 2 points,so i would spend 1 point in dirty and 1 point in prep.
Greetings from Germany
While it's true that Dirty Deeds is not a particularly large damage boost on a per-point basis, it should be noted that Prep basically doesn't increase your DPS at all; it gives you an extra Blade Flurry every 10 minutes, and that's about it. Now, I'm not arguing that Prep doesn't provide useful benefits in PvP scenarios, but from a PvE perspective it's just not that impressive.
When I scoped these two exact builds out via the Rogue DPS spreadsheet, they were nearly identical DPS. Of course 11/27/23 takes the edge due to having Blade Flurry, and I would probably go that route.
Could go 11/21/29 and get the benefit of both prep and BF, and according to the DPS spreadsheet 1 point into Deadliness is the same as 1 point with BF. Thou when i put all 3 specs into the spreadsheet, I had a difference of 25 less DPS going 11/20/30 compared to 11/27/23. Of course im doing this with MGQ. Going by the spreadsheet with my gear, if you compare Rod of the Sun King to Talon of Azshara, you get more DPS by going SSpec/WEx/Talon (1239) then going Deadliness with Rod of the Sun King (1223). The gap, im sure, would close as I get more AP though gear progression (im kara/gruul/mags geared), 1700 AP, 266 hit, 24% crit.
While it's true that Dirty Deeds is not a particularly large damage boost on a per-point basis, it should be noted that Prep basically doesn't increase your DPS at all; it gives you an extra Blade Flurry every 10 minutes, and that's about it. Now, I'm not arguing that Prep doesn't provide useful benefits in PvP scenarios, but from a PvE perspective it's just not that impressive.
Prep does not affect blade flurry. Most people want it because of its huge survivability increase.
Well, I had some time to squeeze in a few quick tests with the whole DD/rupture, here's what I found.
The point where dirty deeds kicks in is still at 20% of target health, not 35% as the tooltip states. This is a reported bug, and hopefully will be fixed in a later ptr build.
Rupture is indeed working just fine with dirty deeds. However, since DD is bugged and not kicking in until 20%, any tests done above and below 35% will not show any change. Also, the rupture will continue to tick based on when it is applied. So the damage/tick of an existing rupture will not change when DD kicks in. It must be reapplied to get the bonus damage.
Rupture >35% health: 228 a tick
Rupture ~30% health: 228 a tick
Rupture ~22% health: 228 a tick, even after target health dropped below 20%
Rupture ~19% health: 274 a tick (228 * 1.2 = 274, so it's indeed +20% damage)
Edit: Also, I've confirmed garrote gets the damage bonus as well.
Really? I thought it did. You learn something new every day.
When you say "huge survivability increase", I assume you're referring to PvP? Because in PvP, I don't really see that it helps your survivability much; with the lower aggro generation of a Hemo build (given that some of your damage is distributed amongst the raid instead of all coming from you), I can't imagine that you'd need to vanish more than once every 5 min, and the only time you end up using evasion is with things are sort of hosed anyway. I suppose you get some extra snare breaks out of it, but that really only matters for Vashj.
Point remains: while it's a reasonable choice from a PvP perspective, it's close to useless in PvE which explains why people take Dirty Deeds instead.
Really? I thought it did. You learn something new every day.
When you say "huge survivability increase", I assume you're referring to PvP? Because in PvP, I don't really see that it helps your survivability much; with the lower aggro generation of a Hemo build (given that some of your damage is distributed amongst the raid instead of all coming from you), I can't imagine that you'd need to vanish more than once every 5 min, and the only time you end up using evasion is with things are sort of hosed anyway. I suppose you get some extra snare breaks out of it, but that really only matters for Vashj.
Point remains: while it's a reasonable choice from a PvP perspective, it's close to useless in PvE which explains why people take Dirty Deeds instead.
It's kind of the same thing as improved sap before the sap change. Sure, the two points in imp sap didn't really help in raid situations, but the minimal loss in damage (2 points from lethality) was worth the incredible utility imp sap provided. Sure, having one more point in DD is more pve damage, but prep is one of the most useful talents we have. Prep saves repair bills sometimes (if you're able to zone out or something) Just because you raid doesn't mean you do so in a vacuum.
But, your point DOES remain, and I can see people going either way. I just think it's silly not to take prep.
I suppose you could just use maces for these types of builds given the changes to Mace Spec next patch anyways. It also saves you a talent point so you can get both BF and Prep.
Something I might test out myself come next patch. I really don't expect it to out damage a pure combat build, but it should be a fun play style alternative without too much of a loss. I would be trying this with a Rod of the Sun King, as it seems best suited until the Warglaives for this type of build.
I'm using a 11/27/23 build with prep here(mental breakdown since dd is useless at the moment), and Pallari is using combat daggers. Quite comparable gear, and we've been neck to neck on the meters since the MC days. The only boss I quite consistently out dps his dagger spec with my regular combat swords builds is Morogrim, pretty much everything else is highly situational.
Unfortunatly none of the other combat rogues were present, would be interesting to see how it compares to the other combat rogues.
Point remains: while it's a reasonable choice from a PvP perspective, it's close to useless in PvE which explains why people take Dirty Deeds instead.
Personally, I'd go DD AND Prep.
Back in BWL I was running around as a hemo rogue as well, and I know there were fights (those damned drakes) where I found myself using all my 3 vanishes (vanish + prep + CD finished vanish). On aggro sensitive fights, having that free vanish is pretty sweet, and really allows for me to go full out with damage right from the get-go. Can burn pots right @ the beginning, vanish, and then start again. In Gruul, having that extra vanish/evasion if the tank order changes is very very very sweet...
And yes. Elusiveness > Setup.
At this point, I'm just wondering what exactly do they intend to do with DD... They didn't specify whether the current mechanic is the actual one or not, they just said that the tooltip and the current mechanic do not match. So who knows which way they'll go. Hopefully it'd be the +20% all damage past 35% dream...
And for those people who are saying that a sub hemo build has less threat generation, at this point on live, I'm still doing top dps, and still having to watch my aggro everybit as much as when I was combat swords.
Setup is extremely sweet on resist fights, for what it's worth. Probably still not owrth nabbing, but back in BWL when I was hemo I would have a complete blast with Firemaw...but that's somewhat unique even for resist fights with just how many resists are possible (Often would fill up to 5 CP within a few seconds)
10/24/07, 11:33 AM
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