Can u say mother shahraz rape fest?

Ain't Mace Weapon Skill separated from Mace Specialization in 2.3? Aka you still "need" WEx/Expertise even with Maces?

Expertise is replacing Weapon Skill in 2.3 but it is performing a different function. No longer will it reduce your chance to miss, instead reducing your chance to be dodged and parried. Expertise will not be specific to weapon types. There is one generic Expertise Rating so any item with a specific Weapon Skill Rating will be converted to Expertise Rating (so [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], for example, goes from having 4 different Weapon Skill Ratings to a single Expertise Rating).

You're absolutely right that the Mace Specialization talent will not include any additional Expertise. Instead it will retain it's 6% chance to proc the Mace Stun effect but will also add 5% damage to every critical strike you make with maces.

If you want your reduction in Dodge and Parry you will indeed need to take the Weapon Expertise talent in addition to the Mace Specialization talent.

Just did so as well.

• The 20% mark is correct and well confirmed already. I was able to reproduce this with Gouge.
• White attacks do not benefit, also well confirmed.
• Rupture does, as does Hemorrhage (and Gouge).
• Poisons do not benefit from DD (at least Deadly Poison, even when applied after the 20% mark).
• 2/2 DD is a simple *1.2 multiplicator (and not something silly like *1.1*1.1), as expected.
• Hemorrhage is directly benefiting from its own application (+36 dmg), without using one of the ten charges available. It also doesn't benefit from an existing debuff (so no double 36 damage).

It saves the repair bill in most cases, even on such fights like Vashj.
Just vanish once you have aggro, setting you to the bottom of the aggro list (despite other rogues vanishing after you), and then, when 'normal' rogues die due to the combat pulse (when everybody else that hasn't vanished is dead), just vanish again et voilÃ*, sole survivor.

I assume it has saved me a couple of hundreds repair costs by now.

It does when combined with the better stats. In addition, Syphon eats imp Shadow Bolt charges (20% shadow damage increase), so it is best if the number of Syphons in the raid is very low.

Has anyone tested if it is worth it to use Ghostly Strike whenever the cooldown is up? I know GS hits harder than hemo and im pretty sure its better damage per energy, but since you would lose the added damage from the hemo debuff i wasnt sure.

Ghostly Strike is useful while soloing (where the dodge helps you) and in PvP for the extra damage. In a raid it is hardly worth it, since you want hemo debuff up as much as possible.

I've not noticed a significant difference either way, but GS isn't anywhere near as awesome as riposte.

wtb 10 energy ghostly strike...
*grin*

I don't know if this has been brought up anywhere, and if this is a known thing, however looking through all of the WWS posts on this thread and testing it myself using several hemo combat builds, most if not all of them i've seen have white crit damage that is significantly higher than hemo's crit damage, I was wondering if there is any math that we may not know about. If it is a known issue, and math actually supports it that is fine, but maybe it isn't supposed to be that way. Anyone have an answer to why this is occurring?

The high white crits are probably windfury attacks.

Since hemo doesn't have any bonus damage, and most/all of the PvE hemo builds don't take lethality to boost crits on specials, you'd expect the white hits and hemos to be roughly equal.

However, WF attacks benefit from increased AP, and they get lumped in with your "normal" white attacks on WWS, so if the rogue has WF and no lethality (highly likely situation), I'd expect to see some higher white hits/crits than hemos.

That may be entirely possible, I do know that personally i very rarely ever run with an enhance shaman in my group as my guild is less fortunate in that situation, and it may just be a fluke in my case, but that does make sense .. thank you

Hi everyone, I am just checking to see how the thread is going. I don't raid right now, but I see that 2.3 has some very promising changes for hemo and the sublety tree in general! I have not done any numbers, but I am excited to see that dirty deeds may be worthwhile to pick up. As well, it seems that weapon skill is no longer as uber as before.

Ghostly strike uses 40 energy even when your attack is missed/dodged/parried. If you can get your weapon expertise high enough then it will have a better damage per energy ratio than hemo, but normally the 5-10% chance than the GS causes 0 damage for 40 energy makes it not a pvp-only ability.

Just FYI, it was confirmed by Nethaera today in the WoW Rogue forums that Dirty Deeds is intended to only affect special attacks, as it works now on the PTR, and that the PTR patch notes will be reworded.

So, meh. Still an ok talent, but definitely not the saviour of the Sub tree by any means.

I assume by 'as it works now on the PTR' you mean it is supposed to affect special attacks and finishers?

Depending on your definition of special atacks, finishers can be special attacks as well, since they are not auto-attacks.

Then again, poison procs, which are also no auto attacks but inherent to the rogue class, do not profit from the DD boost.

Our enhancement shammy tested this once with a warlock and said the Syphon proc didn't affect Imp SB charges. Has the opposite been solidly confirmed or something?

According to the new patch notes, WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes,

Quite a buff, if the energy cost remains the same and the skill remain unormalized.

Hate to be the one to do this, but reading that last buff to Hemorhhage made me splooge in my pants. Personally, that seals the deal for me in regards to hemo doing more damage than combat swords with swords and maces. That is the biggest buff hemo has received thus far. Hemo will now scale perfectly with increased attack power. I love the things that Blizzard does.

http://www.metalmusicman.com/uploads/hemo23125.jpg

Screenshot of the new Hemo Tooltip.

I was worried that having 125% weapon damage would negate the need for the debuff, but I was wrong. You get to keep both. The question now is, will it be normalized?

I'll test it later and edit this post to let you know.

(edit) It is not normalized. However, the 125% multiplier does not increase the effect the Hemo debuff has on its own damage (that is to say that the Hemorrhage ability only gets 36 extra damage from the Hemorrhage debuff, NOT 36 * 125% = 45; however, crits still provide double the bonus, or 72, and mace spec/RED/Lethality seem to increase this).

I doubt Blizzard realize what 125% weapon damage is in terms of damage output.
With a 2.6 speed weapon the damage per attack will outperform sinister strike at barely 1400 AP if you apply the debuff aswell.

1400 AP
S2 weapon, 254.02 avg dmg, 2.6 speed
White swing: 514.02
Normalized swing: 484.02
Sinster strike w/combat: (normalized+98)*106%*110% = 678.64
Hemo w/debuff: white*125%+36 = 678.53

If this buff stays I'll be surprised if 5/31/25 or 0/31/30 won't outperform the traditional combat PvE build by quite a deal.