Couldnt you use Backstab as your main attack with the 11/28/22 builds instead of hemo?

Still maintain Serrated Blades but Pick up Imp Backstab and Opportunity?

Something like this 14/29/18

Right they are keeping up to the counterparts. But this is only in relation to what they did before when they were combat. Lets say from one week to the next Rogue A and B get no signifigant upgrade (lets say no DST) and rogue B switches from Combat to Hemo. Thus it becomes quite relevent how Rogue Bs damage does in comparison to rogue A, since Rogue A is a control of sorts for the experiment. A constant that one can compare yourself to.

As for respeccing, most raid classes do have to do it to compete in the arenas, so honestly its not that much of a deal. And that is what people are trying to figure out here. Whether the gain in raid dps is worth the loss in their own dps. I think that is worth respeccing for.

This isn't a pvp discussion, so I won't go into this much. However, I did want to let you know that a combat build, is in everyway, better than hemo build for every type of arena. I'm assuming that is what you meant by pvp, if you're just random ganking in BG then more power to you, but combat will be better there as well, since mod is mostly worthless since you have a wide open space to just stay behind people.

There isn't a compelling reason to spec Hemo, that's the issue with Hemo, everything a Hemo build does a combat build does better and also does things hemo builds do not do. It's the reason some people here are so confused as to why so many are fighting for hemo here. There's just simply no reason, since Combat is just better in both pvp and pve.


Rogues are an exception. Combat is the best Arena build and PVE build we have, there is no respeccing unless you wish to move around a few talents within the combat tree(or assassination tree if Mutilate). Combat is just that solid of a tree. Take a look at the Arena standings of all top rogues in arena's you will see some variant of 1x/4x and 41/20 those are the only truly viable arena builds for rogues. Both builds also happen to be PVE builds.

All I will say is that I will rape a full combat speced rogue with the 11/21/29 spec as you can control the fight more and with 2 evasions it's not pretty. Prep is very powerfull in arenas and having 2 imp sprints also makes this build better than a full combat spec. How can you say that MOD and Camo are not usefull in arenas?? I agree full combat is a strong 5v5 arena build, but it is not the best imo.

If the weapon skill argument against bosses holds true, why aren't Mace Rogues using this build ?

Given that most people use at least some +hit gems. I would say that even if you are human/hit capped/etc. you would be better off getting WX and changing some of your plus hit gems to agil/crit/ap. Its just a really good use of talent points. Even if you have already maxed your hit change out some gems.

In additon, aren't there at least a few boss fights where bladeflurry is really a huge perk because you can dps adds and the boss at the same time? I know that Myrx over on the WOW forums posted something along those lines.

Nightbane (skellies), Illhoof (imps), Magtheridon (if you pull first 2 channelers together), Hydross, Karathress (if you tank some adds together), Leotheras (inner demon), Vashj (if there's still an elite up going into phase 3), Solarian (while she's gone), Kael'thas (Weapons).

Unfortunately that's the limit of my experience. Need to get into BT/Hyjal.

I've followed this thread from it's conception and tried this build (11/28/22) out on a few of our SSC/TK runs. I'm hit capped, 1650 AP with DST, talon, WSC. Pretty much what this build needs to be effective. What I've found:

Pros
- Initial aggro seems lower than classic combat. I died less on nuking trash and on aggro sensitive encounters (hydross adds for example)
- Aggro is less of a problem overall. 2 vanishes and evasions + ghostly strike really makes you feel invincible.
- Mobility seems to be increased. With increased stealth speed and a lower energy special, it just feels like you can get where you wanna go and do the thing you wanna do faster.
- Unbuffed or Partially buffed dps seems to be very good. It seemed to me, and curse me for not WWSing it, that my dps in places where I wasn't recieving full raid buffs (kara, heroics) that this build is extremely competetive.
- This build is very strong in arena. 2x imp sprint is godly.
- This build is amazing for grinding. I've never mowed through mobs so fast. Probably the best build for soloing old instances too! (balnazaar and baron were possible with this build!)
- Beautiful synergy with Warp Spring Coil, -1560 armor is alot.

Cons
- When respeccing back to my classic combat build, I find I do on average ~150 to 200 dps more in IDEAL conditions. This is fully raid buffed with enh shaman + battle shout.
- Sometimes cycles are a bit harder to keep up, due to the lack of energy procs. One blade flurry or a dodged rupture can reset your entire cycle.
- Adrenaline Rush/Blade Flurry/Haste Pot combo.
- I found myself always looking for our feral druid's target to take advantage of mangle, also single target dps is very dependant on debuffs and enemy type.

--------------------------- <-- the bottom line

It was fun to have this build, and I feel like it has it's place in the raiding world as the hemo debuff is very useful to any raid. As I am extremely competetive (read: meter whore) I will stay traditional combat but our other rogues are cycling this build around and I feel it will be used by one of us in our raids. Perhaps in BT with more haste /-armor gear this build will shine even more and surpass combat in it's actual dps done. I certainly wouldn't recommend any rogue who doesn't have the gear necessary to try this however.

So I guess the real question becomes, given that average boss armor is 7k, at what armor delta would a serrated blades rogue with all the -armor goodies do more dps than a combat spec'd rogue with no -armor items given identical weapons? Is it even possible with gear currently in the game?

Edit:
I queried thottbot to bring back all items in game that have -armor effects:
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Spell Effect: Apply Aura: Mod Power Cost % (Physical)

Not counting chance on hit or on use items a rogue can gear oneself to get a flat 1036 armor reduction. If you take out [Boundless Agony], you can acrue 826 armor reduction in just armor items only. Add in Serrated Blades(560) and you have a total of 1386 to 1596 passive armor reduction. Could that much armor reduction net more damage per hit than the bonuses of AR, CP, and SA? Beats me!

Having raided and pvped alot with both specs I have to say this is very dependant on classes you play with and preference. If you dont have freedom the extra sprint, vanish and evasion comes in very handy. I specially found that being able to blow vanish+CS just to keep extra control twice can be godly. Personally I feel the 11/21/29 to be much better survivalwise than full combat. As hemo I wanted to be primary target in arena. As combat I much prefer it to be on someone else. Hemo spec cant compare to the burst of AR into a exposed armor-target though. In raids the diffrence between them for me is 1200 vs 1400 dps not counting the damage hemo gives to others in raids.
Atm I feel that is enough to stay combat since primary focus is pve. If my focus would switch to pvp I would go hemo in a heartbeat.

Edit: Actually when putting in my gear in the sheet the diffrence comes out only as 32 dps diffrence fully buffed without hemo estimate. Guess the switch to dragonstrike from dragon maw meant alot more for the hemo build than the combat build.

I played with a 0/39/23 build last night (not exactly what this thread has been discussing, but I feel it's relevant).
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Here's a WWS of a full SSC clear and TK minus Kael using the cookie cutter 19/42/0 build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Wow Web Stats

Here's a WWS of the same clear this week using the above posted build:
Loading...

Here's an armory link to my current gear, I logged out in my new shiny T5 helm, both tests were run with a T4 with Relentless Earthstorm.
The Armory

Rough napkin analysis:
- Using the hemo build dropped my DPS by about 33, but considering it added the hemo debuff for the raid it's probably in the same ballpark as far as DPS is concerned.
- Survivability, personal utility, and fight control vs single mobs is FAR greater with the hemo spec.
- Dodged finishers is noticable and annoying without surprise attacks.
- Energy and CP regen from combat potency, ruthlessness, and relentless attacks is definitely nice. Not having them is noticable and screws with your ability to get a nice cycle going. I wasn't set on a rotation at the beginning of using hemo but settled in using 2s/5r. I'm not entirely happy with that though, if you don't dodge/resist during the rotation you can have 1-2s SnD downtime.
- Setup plus evasion and/or CoS is very nice on mobs that whirlwind, cleave, AoE, or when you get aggro on something small. The problem is you usually end up dumping the extra points into an evis as you have rupture and SnD up from your standard cycle, evis is severly and noticably gimped with this spec as you don't have Imp Evis or Aggression.

Error analysis:
- Raid time was within 3 minutes of the same for both clears.
- For a "real" raid setting this is about as likely as I (and probably anyone else) am going to be able to come as far as controlling variables is concerned. Both weeks the groups were roughly the same: enhancement shammy, feral druid, fury warrior, MS warrior, rogue.
- My gear was "I think" the same. Only potential change is that I've been playing with bloodlust brooch vs abacus, I know I used abacus all of last night but I wouldn't swear to using it the entire raid last week...possible source of error.
- As I stated I wasn't comfortable with the finisher cycles I was using. Last week as combat was the standard 1s/5r, this week I was running 2s/5r for most of the time, but that leaves you with SnD downtime of roughly 2 seconds every cycle.

I'll try and get a bit better analysis together later, but I'm at work and figured someone might like to chew on this this afternoon.