Ghost

I was actually thinking 11/26/24 would be pretty good.

 

Alacrity

I was wondering the same, with hemo at its PTR state and 2/2 dirty deeds being able to AR twice under 35% seems like it would be a substantial amount of damage.

 

Backgoode

Tinkering with the spreadsheet, I'm finding that 11/26/24 and 11/20/30 do nearly the same amount of damage, with the latter slightly ahead in my gear (2dps or something insignificant). They both outperform 20/41 sword spec by ~30dps with the hemo debuff taken into account.

*edit* I also didn't put points in Dirty Deeds on the spreadsheet.

 

Aereus

Question for me at this point is, would Dirty Deeds + Prep be worth losing Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes, and Murder? (In order to pick up AR)

You would then get 3 AR in a fight, 2 of them with DD buff, but possibly not get full usage out of Hemo at that point. In longer boss fights, you might even be able to get 4 or 5 ARs.

And at what crit% point would Mace-spec Hemo with Syphon be better than Sword spec? Having trouble believing this spec even in 2.3 could rival Combat swords when it lacks Potency and even possibly Relentless Strikes.

 

Backgoode

Going by the spreadsheet, 0/31/30 lost ~55dps from 11/26/24 and 11/20/30 without dirty deeds enabled, and ~80 with it enabled. Losing relentless strikes is a huge dps loss.

 

Aereus

Well if the spreadsheet is to be believed, Syphon + Swiftsteel Bludgeon would be equal damage to Blade of Infamy + Merc Quickblade almost exactly. And since the spreadsheet doesn't have the 125% weapon damage for Hemo yet, that would actually put something like 11/27/23 AHEAD of 20/41/0 Combat Swords, which seems inconceivable, but we'll see when the patch comes I guess.

 

Oki

I doubt they will keep this, its too OP, and I dont understand why combat daggers are made to still be worse than sword builts

Any idea what to change in the spreadsheet for the 125% damage change?

 

Vanadi

My guess is they are going to normalize Hemo like sinister strike.

 

Spoony

Let's pray that doesn't happen.

 

Vanadi

I actually hope they will, as that will make it easier for them to balance the new version of hemo out for all gear levels. I can see rogues with the warglaives getting crazy dps out of this new version of hemo. Its about time they made hemo stronger as a standalone skill and less reliant on having the slowest weapon you can find (aimed shot anyone?).

 

Wandatin

Posted by Backgoode on the DPS spreadsheet thread:

Cell X8 on the Buffed Cycles sheet should read:
=((mhavg+ap/14*mhspd)*1.25)*(Z6+(cfact+0.06*leth)*Z7)+360*(1+raidcrit)*debuffon (The extra parentheses make it look neater to me)

You can also add the 1.25 multiplier to the Unbuffed Cycles sheet in the same fashion.

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

 

piet

I'd be suprised if they have really considered the pve implications of this change.

 

• songster

Actually, I think this would be fair for Hemo considering how few damage talents there are in the bottom of Subtlety tree. The true "problem" with Subtlety builds in raiding is that both Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield specialisation are more or less essential.

Weakening Relentless Strikes might be one way forward, with corresponding tweaks deeper in Combat and Assassination trees to mean that standard combat and/or mutilate specs don't lose out.

 

◊ s4dfish

I've long thought that Relentless Strikes should be inherent. Any skill that is simply must have for about any build is OP IMHO (don't get me started on DW Spec). That being said I'm loving the Hemo change and look forward to respectable damage with 11/21/29.

 

• songster

I just looked at my figures for the current beta DPS spreadsheet. It looks as though going from 20/41/0 to 11/21/29 leaves my DPS almost exactly the same even before applying the Hemo debuff. That is, I get 1357 DPS with 11/21/29 compared to 1353 with 20/41/0. The debuff thus genuinely constitutes additional synergistic group benefit, as long as your raid isn't nearing the debuff limit.

Still no good reason to take a deep subtlety rogue to a raid, but I guess that's understandable - we shouldn't demand all three trees to be raid-optimal. Would be interesting if they did what they're hinting and made combo points a self-buff, but put that as a talent deep in Sub. "Master of Subtlety" - allows you to retain your combo points between targets. That would mean a PvP boost for our PvP tree, but would also mean that subtlety rogues shine in particular types of raid encounters: i.e. any with lots of target-switching.

 

Doctah

Pardon my humble intrusion, I have a mere alt of a rogue but in a raid setting isn't the only reason to take a rogue for pure dps? Thus if youre doing simliar to combat dps while applying a melee debuff (and consequently increasing tank threat as well), why spec combat at all other than for preference?

 

OnTheHissay

Anyone got the means to go check out if Hemorrhage is normalized on PTR?

 

• songster

Well, that's kind of inherent in the nature of the rogue - there will always be one build that does fractionally more DPS, and thus most raiding rogues will choose that build. However, the Hemo build issue is self-limiting - you only want one Hemo rogue in the raid as the debuff from the second is largely wasted. That being so, the increased controllable burst from a deep combat build (i.e. with AR) means that you'll want your second (plus third, fourth etc.) rogues to spec something other than Hemo.

Right now, if the current changes go live, it looks to me as though the only non-raid-viable builds are (a) Mutilate on non-poisonable mobs and (b) deep subtlety - i.e. shadowstep. To get that deep in the sub tree means you lose dual wield specialisation and quite possibly relentless strikes as well. Although deep sub has a couple of nice talents in, it's got nothing that will compensate that big a loss in sustained DPS.

 

Wodahs

Yeah, something is messed up with this idea for sure. Im critting 2200 hemo's, unbuffed, with an 11/28/22 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft build. Dirty deeds looks good, but I chose prep, relentless strikes, and 2/2 weapon expertise over it. I have an unbuffed 2kish ap, with a mh warglaive, and at first glance the dps on this build is just out of hand. Im SURE its not going live like this.

 

piet

it'll go live but only for a patch or so. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

Jojo_el_Mono

The point regarding only wanting one hemo rogue in the raid stands true currently, but will this be true when the patch becomes live? With the reduction in the amount of charges on hemo, it might get eaten up very quickly, depending on how many melee (including tanks and pets) and hunters that you have in the raid. It was my own theory that they reduced the number of charges on hemo for that reason. This way, having two (or maybe more) hemo rogues in a raid wouldn't be a total waste... especially if it ends up being better dps than combat.

I am looking forward to experimenting with this build, should it actually go live, or possibly on the PTR with my guild when we test ZA.

 

Ruqas

If I'm not mistaken, Vulajin's spreadsheets say that hemo specs; 11/21/29 (for maces), and 11/28/22 (for sword spec) already beat out combat swords. This latest buff should not only guarantee that hemo beats out combat swords, but it should also increase the potency of 11/21/29 because it will increase your weapon's damage increasing hemo's damage percentage-wise by even more. This is the buff hemo needed to be all that it can be in terms of being pve/raid-viable. It should now do more DPS by a significant amount and buff the raid. Rogues were meant to do the best DPS. Any time Blizzard buffs our DPS, in my opinion, it isn't OP. It is just right, especially when our damaging special attacks buff the entire raid's physical DPS substantially. Also, bringing more than one hemo rogue would still be preferred in 25-mans even if its DPS didn't topple combat swords because of a large amount of debuff consuming.

 

Vanadi

This isn't truely a case of best dps though. That is what we already are anyway. It is about the generally accepted pure pve tree being outdone by what has always been viewed at as the pvp tree (even though it was completely lackluster in tbc pvp). I agree that subtelty needed buffs in pvp and blizzard was on the right track with that. It's not as if the latest version of hemo (before the 125%) was really bad in pve as it already nearly matched combat sword dps. This new version just completely outdoes combat sword because of the insane scaling hemorhage has. Unnormalized and a 125% modifier means it will outdo any spec in the long run due to it scaling better with gear. Even if they normalised it I can see it being too powerful in a pve setting because of its scaling.

 

Katherine

You will want at least 2 Hemo Rogues in 25 mans. When i tested Hemo in Blasted Lands on a servant, i managed to consistantly drop the charges to 3-5ish solo.

 

Vanadi

In its current version and after a certain level of gear (probably late t5/bt) I don't think it matters how much hemo rogues you bring as it definatly looks like that spec is capable of outdoing combat swords.