• Vulajin

If anyone uses the EP system from the Roguecraft thread, here are some EP values for Hemo/swords (11/28/22):

Strength: 1.00 EP (1.10 EP w/ Kings)
Agility: 1.92 EP (2.12 EP)
Attack Power: 1.00 EP
Hit Rating: 2.05 EP (2.07 EP)
Crit Rating: 1.59 EP (1.60 EP)
Expertise Rating: 2.45 EP (2.48 EP)
Haste Rating: 1.93 EP (1.97 EP)

Here are the values for Hemo/Deadliness with Blade Flurry (11/21/29):

Strength: 1.00 EP (1.10 EP w/ Kings)
Agility: 1.90 EP (2.10 EP)
Attack Power: 1.00 EP
Hit Rating: 1.83 EP (1.86 EP)
Crit Rating: 1.57 EP (1.58 EP)
Expertise Rating: 2.28 EP (2.31 EP)
Haste Rating: 1.84 EP (1.87 EP)

 

Zadus

So with the talents of oppertunity and initiative do you ever use garrote to get any use out of those talents and if so how would your dps cycle then go? Just curious because if people are going to switch to this build they need to know how to use it effectively.

Or would you just ignore garrote and use it for pvp? While keeping the exact same cycle as used for 19/42/0.

 

songster

You use it as an opener sometimes. Irrelevant in long fights. You can use it once after you vanish as well. And it's still a minute portion of your DPS.

 

Azaziel

Vulajin, when you did your testing of spec did you count with switched gems and enchants for the deadliness specs, since agi is better than hit for them.

With a combat build your gear would be more appropriate for the sword spec so the deadliness suffers more than it should.

 

Alacrity

Thats exactly what I was wondering, what gem choices would be best currently Im using +10 hit in almost every slot, with some +5hit/+5agi mixed in. What would be the best hemo gem choices, how much could you sacrifice?

 

• Vulajin

I did not count these things. I would estimate that the re-gemming will pull 11/21/29 slightly closer to 11/28/22, but it's not likely to make up ~20 DPS. For reference, if I re-gemmed every [Glinting Noble Topaz] in my gear to [Delicate Living Ruby], and every [Rigid Dawnstone] to [Glinting Noble Topaz], I'd gain 28 agility at the cost of 28 hit rating. According to my EP ratings calculated above, that's a gain of ~1.68 EP. Not exactly an earth-shattering difference.

Using the EP ratings I calculated above, it looks like:

- 11/28/22 w/ Kings prefers [Delicate Living Ruby] > [Glinting Noble Topaz]
- 11/28/22 w/o Kings prefers [Rigid Dawnstone] > [Glinting Noble Topaz] > [Bright Living Ruby]
- 11/21/29 w/ Kings prefers [Delicate Living Ruby] > [Glinting Noble Topaz]
- 11/21/29 w/o Kings prefers [Bright Living Ruby] > [Glinting Noble Topaz]

 

hannigaholic

I did much the same test but with only 1 weapon; another 1.9 speed mace (no offhand weapon equipped)

With 1483AP and the mace having a max damage of 49 I got the following results after about 10-20 minutes on a Blasted Lands Servent mob:

Melee
1002 successful swings
745 hits
258 crits
Max hit 215
Max crit 439

Hemo
385 successful swings
273 hits
113 crits
Max hit 369
Max crit 732

Given that the majority of the Hemo swings were at 1% those figures can be calculated as

Max base Hemo hit 307.5
Max base Hemo crit 610

307.5 / 215 = 1.43
610 / 439 = 1.39

If hemo hadn't been normalised then these figures would have been closer to 265-270 and 545-550, giving a ratio much closer to 1.25; as it is they are very close to what you would expect for a 2.4-speed normalisation with a 1.9-speed weapon (a ratio of 1.49:1).

Hemo is most definitely normalised in the current PTR. According to a very crude spreadsheet I knocked up it still outperforms current Hemo (even up to silly AP levels and 3.0-speed weapons) and I think that without the normalisation it would probably be a little overpowered.

I'd have actually preferred it if they'd increased the power of the Hemo debuff a bit more instead because I feel that it is the core of the ability but I'm certainly not going to look this gift horse in the mouth.

 

Bartuck

So I don't understand that correctly. Is the old or the new Hemo stronger?

 

tymoney321

The new hemo is stronger, even while normalized.

 

tenaki

Hmmm...
If hemo has been normalized... Then weapon speed no longer matters, and all those 2.6spd weapons are now available for hemo rogues.
So [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer] is now better than [Spiteblade], even for a hemo rogue.

And those new ZA weapons are now also open to hemo rogues as viable weapons.

 

Bartuck

Well the only thing I've noticed while raiding is the fact, that a ghostly strike did always more damage as a sinister strike and the ghostly strike has its 125% Dmg. If I'm not wrong, my hemo should do more damage per energy as a normal sinister strike in the raid. Well I think I have to respec with 2.3 again ^^

 

Arindelest

On a slight tangent but somewhat related:

I understand that Ghostly Strike should not be optimally used in a Hemo cycle, especially now with the change. I still wanted to find out if GS was normalized now or not, so I did about 45 minutes of testing on a Blasted Lands mob. My hypothesis was that if Ghostly was normalized, its average damage should be approximately the same as Hemo. Of course there is some variance here due to Mongoose procs but I do not think it should make a huge difference.

WWS

Note: Obviously the GS sample size is small here. It's hard to get a lot of Ghostly Strikes just because you'd have to be testing for such a long time.

Hemorrhage
Total Hits: 386
Avg Normal Hit: 596
Crits: 179
Avg Crit: 1255

Ghostly Strike
Total Hits: 98
Avg Normal Hit: 654
Crits: 54
Avg Crit: 1376

Now just from these numbers there's quite a discrepancy between Hemo and GS, with GS on average doing about 10% more damage than Hemo. However, I'd like to verify my calculations mathematically:

I kicked the mob for 90 (Kick rank 5 does 110 Damage, 112.2 with Murder) indicating ~19.8% damage reduction.

An un-normalized Ghostly Strike (with Murder and the Hemo debuff) would do (1781 AP, [Talon of Azshara]):
([(AP/14) * WpnSpeed + 1.25 * AvgWpnDmg] + 36) * 1.02
([(1781/14) * 2.70 + 1.25 * (182 + 339)/2] + 36) * 1.02
719 * 81.2
= ~584 Damage

A normalized Ghostly Strike under the same circumstances:
([(AP/14) * 2.4 + 1.25 * AvgWpnDmg] + 36) * 1.02
680 * 81.2
= ~552 Damage

Now these facts are pretty vague for the time being, it should be noted both "hypothetical" numbers should be higher because of Mongoose. In that case the "unnormalized" GS calculation looks more like the tested GS average. It's kind of confusing at this point but I will probably get some more data soon, although it takes a while.

In the meanwhile I'm leaning a bit more towards GS being still unnormalized because in the testing the damage discrepancy was quite large (and in the right direction too, GS doing more damage could be as a result of it not being normalized), and in the calculated scenarios an unnormalized GS more closely fit the findings in our testing.

*Also, it got kind of late while doing this so please feel free to correct any errors I may have made*

 

Wodahs

GS isnt normalized. Game fiels reveal "Weapon % Dmg Value: 125" whereas a normalized attack, like sin strike, is "Normalized Weapon Damage + Value: 98"

 

Arindelest

I'm talking about on the PTR. I understand it's not normalized on live right now, I wanted to see if they un-normalized it, like Hemo, on the test realm.

 

sltyntzhrt

If Ghostly Strike is not normalized and you have at least 2 Hemo rogues keeping up charges, wouldn't Ghostly Strike be beneficial in the rotation with at least a 2.8 speed weapon.

 

Wodahs

Yarr, I see that now, sorry.

 

Tiridor

I think the difference in energy cost more than makes up for the difference in damage for most currently obtainable values of AP and weapon speed. GS would have to do (40/35 = 1.142) 14.2% more damage in order to have a higher DPE than hemo, and with a 2.8 speed weapon you only get (2.8/2.4 = 1.166) 16.7% more damage from AP. So (and I had to do this last bit on an envelope with a borrowed pen, so it's a bit suspect) your damage from AP would have to be 5.68 times your weapon's damage in order for GS to have more DPE. For a Warglaive of Azzinoth, the only 2.8 speed sword worth using that I know of, that would be 24,333AP.

Even if the DPE were equal, a pure hemo cycle is a little tighter (more cp/energy) so hemo would still edge it out.

GS is only worthwhile for the dodge, but I'm told that the dodge is pretty nice for soloing.

 

OnTheHissay

So correct me if I'm wrong, but if you now disregard Ghostly Strike, it's no longer preferred to use a slow weapon for Hemorrhage? Is it only the DPS on the weapon that matter like SS, or do we have other factors to consider since SS is fixed 98 damage and Hemo is 125% weapon damage? Which for me seems to indicate that slow weapons are just as desirable as before.

 

tymoney321

So as a hemo rogue, I am supposed to hemo then SS to use the charges, gaining 5 pt for rupture while keeping SnD up 100% of the time? Or should I just plain hemo to keep charges up? I am confused as to what my rotation should be as a hemo rogue, I just tried it on the PTR and I basically just kept my normal rotation just replacing SS with hemo. Is that wrong?

 

Tiridor

Just like SS, a slower weapon is better, but not by much - the difference is just the weapon damage range, not any multiplier on your AP. Unlike SS, though, Hemo has a 25% modifier to that weapon damage.

So the precise answer is "weapon speed matters 25% more to hemo than it does to SS"

But really it just doesn't matter. Talon of Azshara will still edge out Merciless Gladiator's slicer by a tiny bit due to its lower speed and better stats (that tiny bit extends 25%, and 25% of a tiny bit is a... slightly larger tiny bit) and Merciless Gladiator's Slicer will still be better than Spiteblade despite the speed differences.

 

Tiridor

It should just be pure hemo. In a raid, those charges should be used as fast as you can produce them, and I think that if you don't have aggression or surprise attacks the new hemo is better DPE than SS anyway.

Your cycle shouldn't be the same as with SS though; you should be easily able to do 2s/5r and I imagine 1s/5r is totally possible (I've never actually specced hemo, so this is pure theory/hearsay)

 

tymoney321

So why exactly is Agility>Hit for a hemo spec, if hemo doesn't have any multiplier on AP.
Also, can hemo use up its own charge? Or does it simply refresh it everytime.

 

Tiridor

I think it's not so much that hemo matters more as that hit matters less. Combat Potency is a big factor in the argument for hit as the ultimate stat, and hemo obviously doesn't have that.

Someone on the last page said that hemo was consuming one of its own charges immediately, but that may have changed.

 

songster

One of the two variant Hemo specs take Deadliness, which is an AP multiplier. If you go far enough down the Sub tree you get an Agility multiplier as well, but that's not currently advisable due to losing either Dual Wield spec or Relentless Strikes

 

dmw

So, the common statement is: If you have kings, agility gems are more superior than everything else. Now I have further thoughts, relating to the metagem... (and because I'm an advocacy of runspeed enchants for raids, because of many movement in all the trash and the encounters we have progress at the moment...)

If you take the [Swift Skyfire Diamond] meta, you need just 2 [Glinting Noble Topaz] and for the rest of the sockets you can put in everything else [Delicate Living Ruby], and you can use the 12 agi enchant for boots.

If you take the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] instead, you have to replace two [Delicate Living Ruby] with two [Shifting Nightseye], furthermore you have to use the cat's swiftness for the boots (6 agi + minor runspeed)
so, to reach this 12 agility and 3% critdmg, you loose 14 agility. In the end you have to decide between 3% critdmg and 12 AP + 2 agility...

So the final question is now: Are the 3% critdmg from the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] worth it, also over 12 AP and 2 agility for the hemo-specs coming in 2.3?

If you don't pay attention to the runspeed, the question isn't existent, but for persons like me, there is this thought...