The runspeed is very significant. It's been calculated that you only need something ludicrously small like 3 seconds' movement to make Cats' Swiftness better than Dexterity on boots. That of course doesn't stack with the meta gem. So in reality the choice is 3% crit damage versus 12AP and 8 agility, since you'd replace your boot enchant when you swap metas.

The 6 agility loss were already calculated in the 3% critdmg vs 12 AP / 2 agi statement. =)

What is mean if skill is normalized or isn't?

Honestly, I don't know why you are making it so complicated.

It's the same procedure like testing Hemorrhage.
If Ghostly Strike is not normalized, its damage range is white hit * 1.25.
If GS is normalized, its damage range is white hit / weapon speed * 2.4 * 1.25.

Actually, one single GS was enough to test this.
Weapon with 1.9 speed, 1-3 damage range.
130 to 131 white hits on a Blasted Lands mob.
GS was 163, so it isn't normalized: 130*1.25= 162.5.
If it was normalized, the damage would have been 130/1.9*2.4*1.25= 205.26

// Edit
Test was done on the PTR.


No, I observed that Hemo did not use its own first charge (here).
However, that's a moot point now anyway, since it is now 125% damage instead of +36.

It's both, last I checked.

I did some extensive testing about Hemo and other nagging questions i had and i think i found out some very interesting things:

- Hemo never gets the benefit from its own debuff, no matter if its already on the target or not. Its only 125% weapon damage plus nothing.
- All other special and normal attacks get the bonus damage from the Hemo debuff.
- The bonus damage from the Hemo debuff is mitigated by armor.
- The bonus damage from the Hemo debuff doesn't get increased by Dirty Deeds.
- On crits, the bonus damage from the Hemo debuff gets multiplied accordingly.
- Hemo is normalized now. (confirmed by some others already)
- Ghostly Strike and Rupture are not normalized.
- Dirty Deeds doesn't affect white attacks.

PTR Version 0.3.0 (7521)

If you are interested in the actual test data, here it is:

1271 AP
[Club] 1-3 Damage 1.90 Speed

Mob: Servant of Allistarj in Blasted Lands

Gauge hit for 84 => ~20% mitigation from armor

Max Damage with Hemo debuff and without Dirty Deeds:

Melee 169
Hemo 221
Ghostly Strike 204
Riposte 239
Gauge 113

Max Damage with Hemo debuff and with Dirty Deeds (+20% damage):

Melee 169
Hemo 265
Ghostly 239
Riposte 281
Gauge 129

Damage formula for Hemo before armor mitigation:
(WpnDamage + (AP / 14) * 2.4) * 1.25 * DirtyDeedsBonus

Damage formula for Ghostly, Riposte and normal attacks before armor mitigation:
(WpnDamage + (AP / 14) * WpnSpeed) * Mod * DirtyDeedsBonus + HemoBonus
(Mod is 1 for normal attacks, 1.25 for Ghostly and 1.5 for Riposte)

Damage formula for Gauge before armor mitigation:
105 * DirtyDeedsBonus + HemoBonus

These formulas produce exactly the observed values. I tried all possible other formulas for Hemo, because Hemo not being effected by the bonus damage from its debuff confused me, but non was able to reproduce the observed values. I also tested this with higher dps weapons with 1.90 and 2.80 speed.

I guess you mean this. But the point is, Hemo doesn't get the +36 bonus on its own damage. It is NOT benefiting from its own application nor from earlier applications. Of course its not using one of its own charges because of this.

Just plug in my numbers in some calculator and you'll see. Or go out there and do your own testing.

My spreadsheet suggests that trading down from RED to SSD results in a loss of about 60 EP. 12 AP + 2 agility is roughly 16 EP. The tradeoff isn't worth it at all.

I did, and this test was before the 125% change, where hemo was unnormalized damage +36.
As stated there, it does not use its own charge and also doesn't benefit from already present hemo debuff (so no double 36 damage at that time).
And, as stated in the posting above, this is now a moot point, since unnormalized damage +36 was changed to normalized * 125%.

just a quick question regarding the mechanics of hemo, I've tried searching this thread but didnt find what i was looking for. What i want to know is if there are multiple hemo rogues in the raid, do each have their own debuff slot? Or do they refresh the single debuff slot.

the question is asked because a few of my rogues in my guild are considering speccing hemo if this stay as they are when 2.3 goes live, if things are a bit tight with debuff slots for the raid as a whole we might have to limit the amount of hemo spec rogues we have to those it would benefit the most.

thanks in advance.

In current WoW, there is just 1 debuff slot for hemo, meaning multiple hemo rogues share the same.
I cannot tell how it is in 2.3, but I doubt this has changed.

I have been on the ptr extensively playing as 11 26 24 swords. I have no numbers or data but from what i can see in 10mans usually all the hemo charges are gone before i can even reapply hemo. So as far as the debuff slot goes depending on how much melee you have and seeing as most raids you have 5 tanks and us at least 5 melee i would say 2 hemo rogues would be fine even with only 1 hemo debuff slot. Not sure about 3 but with 4 melee in 10 mans and i couldnt keep hemo up, maybe 3 would actually keep it up enough to allow it to be up permanently. On a side not i cant decide if 11 26 24 or 11 28 22 would be better as swords, i know some have stated that the new expertise would be better for swords than the new dirty deeds, but i wont be far off new hit cap after regemming for more agi, and most bosses are less than 30% hp for quite awhile. If anyone has anymore input on this it would be appreciated.

I would assume its just whenever the boss hits 35% hp until he dies you get the damage bonus on specials, no time requirement or anything.

In a perfect world with a stationary and constant boss (like Gruul), it should be shorter because of execute like abilities. In practice most bosses have different phases and all that stuff, so its very hard to tell.

But there are many bosses with enrage abilities at 20% or they get harder with time etc. and this is why DD is so good. It increases your damage at the end of the fight, where it counts the most in most boss fights. Guess it will be pretty hard to reflect this in a spread sheet.

It depends on raid composition and the boss. If Raid #1 has more, say, Fire Mages than Arcane Mages, then the last 35% will be shorter than the other raid which has all Arcane Mages and no Fire Mages, assuming there's equal dps for the first 65%. An average for most raids can probably be taken, but it would probably require a lot of WWS mining, I think. Maybe a program can be written which could harvest the information... hm.

Anyway, I'm guessing the underlying question has to do something with, "Is there a point where having enough of these Execute-like abilities raid-wide cheapens the relative value by drastically shortening the time frame of their use?"

In some aspects, I can see where that certainly is a concern. However, there are a number of bosses who are at their most deadly from 50% downward, so anything that can reduce the time spent in this is definitely a good thing!

I think what probably would be easiest to do would be to graph out where the overall dps of a build not using Deadly Deeds would eclipse one with, using a variable of how much time is spent in the 35% or below area.

Hope that helps.

Has it been confirmed by Blizz or some test results, that the 1,25 modification indeed includes the AP bonus? Because the tooltip indicates the opposite, imo. I know, tooltips are unreliable, but some kind of insurance would be great, anyway.

I see, seems pretty obvious, now that you posted it again... max hit would have been a lot lower if the rumors were correct.

I understand the current ambiguity regarding which is better out of New Weapon Expertise and new Dirty Deeds' I guess that's just something we'll see in time. Personally I doubt the difference will be a lot at all so I'm taking Dirty Deeds for the soloing/trash burst dps benefits.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the section I've put in bold though. In patch 2.3, the hit cap is going to be 363 Hit Rating (23%) for every raiding rogue (assuming Precision is taken). You're already almost 3% away from the new hitcap going by your armory. If you are regemming for agility (and I assume you mean you're losing some Hit Rating gems, since only 4 of your current gems don't have Hit Rating) then surely you're going to be further away from the hit cap than ever before. At best, if you're replacing the agi/sta gems instead of the Hit Rating ones, then you're still going to be missing more attacks (Hell, you currently have 1.11% wasted +hit, that's 17 or 18 Hit Rating that you currently don't need).

Just from this post it doesn't look like there's going to be a lot to choose between +hit and +agi as 11/28/22 (Sword Spec and no Deadliness), +.05 EP for each point of agility with Kings. If you added in just a single more proc than the ones tested here, i.e. [Madness of the Betrayer] or [Tsunami Talisman], it might push +hit over the top, would be interesting to check this.

Obviously Agility is going to be superior since you're taking away a proc and getting Deadliness.

Blah, page hadn't loaded so this was a late post.

As far as the question of Dirty Deeds vs Expertise, I think Dirty Deeds is going to win in the end. The loss of the expertise talent can be compensated by adding gear that gives you expertise. There may be a point where if you lack any gear with +expertise, you may want to take the talent and respec when you gear up.

The really, really good pieces of expertise gear are few and far between. I think there are a few added in 2.3 (badge loot), but in reality there's the Vashj belt, and Hydross shoulders. With an increased hit cap, hit is going to be at more of a premium, so picking up a talent that gives you expertise without sacrificing other stats in gear is probably going to be pretty huge.

I'm still not sure which would come ahead, but I wouldn't count on being able to gear around expertise to skip WE for DD, and not notice some real tradeoffs.