[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 25

aleyro · 11/04/07, 4:00 PM

Some quick questions, after thinking about the new hemo mechanic:

Does hemo with daggers still suck, or does the scalable dmg increase and normalization make hemo daggers viable?
how does hemo impact the viability of shadowstep/backstab builds for raid dps?
how does the active aggro reduction of ShS compare to feint?
which are the most effective "filler" talents in late sub? cheat death? heightened senses? enveloping shadows?

lets consider something like 11/20/25 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) a new "baseline"build. this build includes the traditional core dps talents (ruthless/relentless, malice, imp snd, precision, dual weild), along with the new key sub talents (serrated blades, hemo, dirty deeds). Which 5pt talent would be most valuable: lethality, sword spec, or deadliness?

Dontmindme · 11/04/07, 4:12 PM

As much as people want to say how everything is going to change with Expertise and how much more we will be missing...

Remember that with Expertise we will also be dodged less. Since Weapon Specialization will be removing 2.5% dodge (converting those to hits) and a typical rogue without any Expertise gear will lose 3.5% hit vs. bosses, the net loss is really only 1% from current effectiveness and this is partially compensated for by dodged specials getting converted to hits.

Dominus · 11/04/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by aleyro

Some quick questions, after thinking about the new hemo mechanic:

Does hemo with daggers still suck, or does the scalable dmg increase and normalization make hemo daggers viable?
how does hemo impact the viability of shadowstep/backstab builds for raid dps?
how does the active aggro reduction of ShS compare to feint?
which are the most effective "filler" talents in late sub? cheat death? heightened senses? enveloping shadows?

1: Hemo with daggers will always be sub par, as will SS daggers, under current systems. The reasoning is, backstab has such huge modifiers (and large energy cost) to make it efficient. Hemo being normalized doesn't mean you shouldn't take weapon speed into account. Take 2 100 DPS weapons, one that is 2.7, one that is 1.8, and you'll have a much, much higher damage range on the 2.7 weapon. Take that damage range, and multiply it by 125% to get hemo damage, and it's clear that daggers will never be comparable to swords/maces/fists under that system.

2: I don't think it really does. ShS still won't be a viable raid spec, due to lack of key talents that are important when beating on a 73+ level boss mob. Basically, and it's been covered in the thread, important talents are spread in such a way that you NEED 11 in Assassination, and 20 in combat. Raiding without relentless strikes, or precision+dual wield spec, is going to be sub par with current talent trees. There just aren't worthwhile deep talents in Sub that can make up for these losses when it comes to raid DPS.

3: No idea about the aggro reduction, but I don't think a ShS spec rogue will be having aggro problems (at least in a raid setting).

4: Haven't ever really considered deep sub, as I raid, so I can't help you there.

Dominus · 11/04/07, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by aleyro

lets consider something like 11/20/25 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) a new "baseline"build. this build includes the traditional core dps talents (ruthless/relentless, malice, imp snd, precision, dual weild), along with the new key sub talents (serrated blades, hemo, dirty deeds). Which 5pt talent would be most valuable: lethality, sword spec, or deadliness?

I think it depends. Lethality, IMO, is out of the question. You should see a better increase from sword spec or deadliness in any situation with hemo. As far as the best 5 pt talent to fill out for that build, I believe someone went over how deadliness is probably the most bang for the buck per talent point, save relentless strikes. 10% increase in AP is huge, it would give me 174 more AP in my current gear.

I'm more inclined to go 11/28/22 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft), though. The reasoning behind this is that you're picking up a lot of sub filler that isn't improving DPS to pick up a huge bang for the buck talent, essentially devaluing the benefit. Going through combat to pick up BF/WE you're seeing gains for about every point you spend (save the 2 filler in Imp Sprint/whatever, and your 1st tier talents).

As I said earlier, I have a feeling 2/2 WE and 1/2 DD will edge out 1/2 WE and 2/2 DD. WE cuts 2.5% dodge out of the equation for the entire fight, and you still get 10% to specials at 35%, as opposed to 20% specials at 35%, and only cutting out 1.25% dodge on all attacks. With this build you also pick up sword spec, which scales well with gear. You also don't miss out on any of key sub talents (hemo, serrated blades), and you still pick up 1/2 DD. You do miss out on prep, but in reality prep isn't that great of a raiding talent. It might give you slight survivability with an extra vanish, but if you drop 2/3 setup you can push your vanish CD down to 3.5 mins, which should be more than enough (I have no issues with a 5 min vanish CD).

PSGarak · 11/04/07, 5:04 PM

Just FYI, daggers get 1.7 (or whatever) normalization on *all* special attacks, not just muta, backstab and ambush. Hemo with a dagger will always be laughably pathetic for damage, and used only for combo point generation, as will all not-daggers-only attacks (including warrior whirlwind and devestate). Even a 2.9 speed dagger wouldn't stand a chance.

Clownbaby · 11/04/07, 5:29 PM

Are there any situations in which something like 5/26/30 would be a viable build? You're missing out on some energy and combo points from assassination, though 5/5 sword spec and 5/5 deadliness would be pretty nice.

roosevelt · 11/04/07, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Clownbaby

Are there any situations in which something like 5/26/30 would be a viable build? You're missing out on some energy and combo points from assassination, though 5/5 sword spec and 5/5 deadliness would be pretty nice.

Seems like it'd be fine as a pvp spec, though probably not as good as AR/Prep. For a raiding spec, losing relentless strikes is silly, especially when you can pick up murder and ruthlessness on the way. Both relentless/ruthlessness benefit pretty heavily from the cheap CP/finishers that hemo provide.

Mojofabulous · 11/05/07, 2:32 AM

I did some testing in blasted lands tonight. While I know that the mob level and lack of the expertise change etc etc will make the dps values be off, I think for a baseline what I did works pretty well. First I used my cookie cutter combat swords build spamming a 4s/5r rotation without using BF or AR. After about 25 minutes I had been flatlined at 1200dps for quite sometime.

Then I went to the PTR and respecced in to the following build:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

After about 20 minutes I was flatlined at around 1215dps. But I realized that setup and dirty deeds were skewing my dmg numbers so I hearthed and respecced out of dirty deeds and setup and replaced those points with random filler that wouldn't affect my dps.

After flying back out to blasted lands and hacking on the mob for another 25 minutes my damage had flatlined at about 1115dps. I adjusted the numbers based on what Dirty Deeds would of added, on average, and that number turned in to ~1136dps. A ballpark guestimate based on what I saw tonight is that I ate about half my own hemo charges. If I remember correctly the new hemo debuff adds about 85 dps if every charge is eaten. Assuming some waste lets say then that there's an extra 35dps value of charges left that other people will use up:

1136+35=1171dps. Obviously that extra 35 won't show up as yours, but it's value is still contributed as a result of you. I didn't use BF with the hemo build either, so the only cooldown that adds to the combat build is adrenaline rush. I'm not sure how much dps that would of added over a 25minute period but it should be acknowledged that it isn't added in to my 1200dps figure for combat swords.

I also know that the Hemo build I used isn't the most ideal spec for raw dps, I chose it because I think the new cheat death talent is completely OP and rivals CoS in awesome. Long story short, I was willing to give up about 100 dps to gain cheat death. It looks like I'll be losing less than that.

EDIT: Btw, I struggled with finding a good rotation to use without having relentless strikes and ruthlessness. I ended up working with a 1s/5s/5r rotation but there has -got- to be a workable rotation that has higher rupture uptime/dmg. Anyone know of such a rotation? I couldn't seem to find it.

Katherine · 11/05/07, 2:49 AM

@Mojo Adrenalin Rush is basically a 5pt eviscerate woven into a 5s5r rotation every 5 minutes. You basically fire your 5s, hit AR, 5r, 5e and back into cycle for 5s.

Dominus · 11/05/07, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mojofabulous

I did some testing in blasted lands tonight. While I know that the mob level and lack of the expertise change etc etc will make the dps values be off, I think for a baseline what I did works pretty well. First I used my cookie cutter combat swords build spamming a 4s/5r rotation without using BF or AR. After about 25 minutes I had been flatlined at 1200dps for quite sometime.

Then I went to the PTR and respecced in to the following build:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

After about 20 minutes I was flatlined at around 1215dps. But I realized that setup and dirty deeds were skewing my dmg numbers so I hearthed and respecced out of dirty deeds and setup and replaced those points with random filler that wouldn't affect my dps.

After flying back out to blasted lands and hacking on the mob for another 25 minutes my damage had flatlined at about 1115dps. I adjusted the numbers based on what Dirty Deeds would of added, on average, and that number turned in to ~1136dps. A ballpark guestimate based on what I saw tonight is that I ate about half my own hemo charges. If I remember correctly the new hemo debuff adds about 85 dps if every charge is eaten. Assuming some waste lets say then that there's an extra 35dps value of charges left that other people will use up:

1136+35=1171dps. Obviously that extra 35 won't show up as yours, but it's value is still contributed as a result of you. I didn't use BF with the hemo build either, so the only cooldown that adds to the combat build is adrenaline rush. I'm not sure how much dps that would of added over a 25minute period but it should be acknowledged that it isn't added in to my 1200dps figure for combat swords.

I also know that the Hemo build I used isn't the most ideal spec for raw dps, I chose it because I think the new cheat death talent is completely OP and rivals CoS in awesome. Long story short, I was willing to give up about 100 dps to gain cheat death. It looks like I'll be losing less than that.

EDIT: Btw, I struggled with finding a good rotation to use without having relentless strikes and ruthlessness. I ended up working with a 1s/5s/5r rotation but there has -got- to be a workable rotation that has higher rupture uptime/dmg. Anyone know of such a rotation? I couldn't seem to find it.

Without relentless/ruthlessness it's tough to get a better combo off. Picking up those two talents alone would let you run a 3s/5r without 2pc T4 and a 1s/5r with 2pc T4. That alone makes it worth putting 11 in assassination no matter what, if you're going purely for raid DPS. Dropping down to 1/2 dirty deeds, no prep, and keeping combat the same looks to me like it will provide the best tri spec raid DPS.

Heck, you might be able to pull off the 3s/5r without those talents, but if you can occasionally maintain it those talents will give you a better margin for error.

Mojofabulous · 11/05/07, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dominus

Without relentless/ruthlessness it's tough to get a better combo off. Picking up those two talents alone would let you run a 3s/5r without 2pc T4 and a 1s/5r with 2pc T4. That alone makes it worth putting 11 in assassination no matter what, if you're going purely for raid DPS. Dropping down to 1/2 dirty deeds, no prep, and keeping combat the same looks to me like it will provide the best tri spec raid DPS.

Heck, you might be able to pull off the 3s/5r without those talents, but if you can occasionally maintain it those talents will give you a better margin for error.

Yea, the goal of that spec though is to get Cheat Death. In a typical Hyjal/BT raid environment it makes you basically unkillable as long as you and your tanks aren't morons. Especially considering the change to how taunt works (affected by hit, not spell hit now). With multiple evasions, vanishes as well as cheat death, cos, hs, potions, blind, sprint, gouge... Well, I consider never dying more advantageous than picking up a little more raw dps from a diff spec. It eliminates those "oops I pulled aggro on an abomination and got instantly crit for 13k dmg and am dead for all of wave 7 now." That's worth it to me.

Rosvall · 11/05/07, 3:52 AM

Might been mentioned, though I haven't found it yet. I'll quote myself from RS forums

Originally Posted by Rosvall

1,5 speed offhand; SnD up. 1,5/(1+(30/100)) =~1,15

Hits per minute = 60/1,15 = 52,2

With a combined miss/dodge rate of 6%. 52,2 * 0,94 = 49.

20% proc chance 49 * 0,2 = 9,8 procs. In energy 9,8 * 15 = 147 EPM

In Seconds 147/60 = 2,45 EPS. Let's say for simplicity that you SS each 4 sec, and your finishers are free. So That leaves us with 9,8 energy off per SS.

Though most will be att about 10% combined miss/dodge, so it'll be 9,4 EPSS (Energy Per Sinister Strike. heh, 4% hit gives you 6 energy per min..) And take into account that some finishers will cost (If you do a 4/5 or 3/5 cycle) So let's say the final cost of an SS is 31 Energy.

.......

Hemo Dmg/35 = SS Dmg/31

(1.25(x + 2.4AP/14)) / 35 = (1.16(x+ 2.4AP/14 + 98)) / 31

(1,25x + (3AP/14)) / 35 = (1,16x + (2,784AP/14) + 113,68) / 31

0,036x + 0,0061AP = 0,037x + 0,0064AP + 3,67

Take all times 27 for some finer numbers ->

0,97x + 0,165AP = x + 0,173AP + 99,1

0,008AP = -99,1 - 0,03x.

AP = -12387,5 - 3,75x.

Which basicaaly means; The lower cost of SS offsets the Higher multiplier of Hemo.

1,25/1,16 = 1,08 while 35/31 = 1,13

Basically Normalized SS Scales better with AP Than Normalized Hemo. Due to combat potency.

Tiridor · 11/05/07, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by Rosvall

Might been mentioned, though I haven't found it yet. I'll quote myself from RS forums

I think the expectation is that the increased white damage from serrated blades will offset the increased yellow damage from combat potency.

Rupp · 11/05/07, 8:46 AM

I did some basic tests for 3 hours in Blasted Lands. Mostly because I wanted to see the difference between 2 specs and test accuracy of mods (btw Recount was very inaccurate on dps tests).

Used same gear for both tests and fought the servants in Blasted Lands.

Using Recap and SW_STats as well as WWS I had the following.

First Spec: Hemo 0/20/41
Hemo test 1 = 911 dps
Hemo test 2 = 931 dps (tightened my cycle)

Second Spec: 20/41/0
Combat Swords test = 1000 dps.

Fights were 5 minutes long on average.

Now against bosses, I feel that Combat Swords will be even higher due to Expertise and Surprise Attacks (fewer dodges) and Serrated Blades will have less of an impact due to bosses having higher armor than the servants in Blasted Lands.

I still don't see Hemo beating out Combat Swords for top raid dps but it looks like it will at least be viable now. I have not tested out 11/21/29 yet that others have been talking about.

A friend of mine is also looking at a 5/31/25 build (Mace/Hemo) as well but I didnt have similar weapons for testing. His theory is the new mace crits + pre/AR m+ serrated/dirty deeds is going to make him a juggernaut in pvp.

Vanadi · 11/05/07, 8:54 AM

The hemo spec you used is not the best hemo raiding spec you can get. You can't really take the best combat pve spec and compare it with a suboptimal hemo raid spec. Its like comparing apples and pears.

Tacx · 11/05/07, 8:56 AM

The changes seem to be preety nice to finally try something new in raid. Whatever, i read the posts and was wondering if +hit is still the ultimate stat for us in 25man-raids with the 11/28/22 build? (As it got stated that 10Agi is the best gem, but my spreadsheet isnt telling me the same.)

Till what hit-level is it worth to go or simply nothing changes as white-dmg is still the nr.1 dmg-source?

◊ songster · 11/05/07, 8:58 AM

I'm pretty impressed that a shadowstep build comes within 7% of a combat swords build, actually. Maybe deep sub doesn't need much more attention PvE-wise after all. Cheat Death will be godly IMO. A lot of BC fights aren't down-to-the-wire DPS races, and the general "not dying to random factors" thing becomes that much more important.

7% loss of DPS is worth it if it saves you from getting unavoidably gibbed 80% into the fight, after all.

Kursk · 11/05/07, 9:05 AM

Rupp your gear isnt valid to run test on.
The World of Warcraft Armory

baldycenarius · 11/05/07, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Tacx

The changes seem to be preety nice to finally try something new in raid. Whatever, i read the posts and was wondering if +hit is still the ultimate stat for us in 25man-raids with the 11/28/22 build? (As it got stated that 10Agi is the best gem, but my spreadsheet isnt telling me the same.)

Till what hit-level is it worth to go or simply nothing changes as white-dmg is still the nr.1 dmg-source?

I believe the build that changes the value of agility is 11/20/30 or 11/21/29 rather then 11/28/22, because you gain deadliness which increases the value of agility. However in any case whichever of those specs you take increases white damage in theory. I'll be going with 5hit/5agi gems personally.

Rupp · 11/05/07, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kursk

Rupp your gear isnt valid to run test on.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Kursk,

I'm sorry but generally new to the type of testing you are doing. What's wrong with my gear and what should I be looking for?

I don't have exact numbers, but when spec'd Hemo I had up to 2350 AP self buffed (food/gear/trinkets).

I know I am not in T6, T5, or even that much in T4 since most of my stuff is Kara with some Gruul/Eye gear tossed in, but is it really that bad?

Originally Posted by Vanadi

The hemo spec you used is not the best hemo raiding spec you can get. You can't really take the best combat pve spec and compare it with a suboptimal hemo raid spec. Its like comparing apples and pears.

What do you all consider the optimal hemo raid spec then? In a raid I'd actually opt for Cheat Death because it looks like it will be a life saver when going through new content for us.

Vanadi · 11/05/07, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rupp

What do you all consider the optimal hemo raid spec then? In a raid I'd actually opt for Cheat Death because it looks like it will be a life saver when going through new content for us.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Rupp · 11/05/07, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Vanadi

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'll test that spec out later today.

Rupp · 11/05/07, 10:45 AM

I still don't see what the big deal is with my gear as I was only trying to check before and after dps for my current spec and a possible Hemo build. As long as my gear stays the same for both tests, wouldnt that give me a decent enough test? I'm not looking to compare my performance vs others as there are too many variables to account for with that.

The only thing I can think of is the lack of +haste or +penetration gear. It's already been determeind that +haste really benefits combat more for Combat Potency procs.

Kursk · 11/05/07, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Rupp

I still don't see what the big deal is with my gear as I was only trying to check before and after dps for my current spec and a possible Hemo build. As long as my gear stays the same for both tests, wouldnt that give me a decent enough test? I'm not looking to compare my performance vs others as there are too many variables to account for with that.

The only thing I can think of is the lack of +haste or +penetration gear. It's already been determeind that +haste really benefits combat more for Combat Potency procs.

First of all from what I see on armory you have a AP around 1300! How on earth can your get that unbuffed AP up to +2.4 k with some food?

Why I dont like that test is because it can end up totally wrong even if you doing a before and after test. The fact is with "bad" gear combat specc can be superior to Hemo and there for I said its not a valid test.

tedv · 11/05/07, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by songster

I'm pretty impressed that a shadowstep build comes within 7% of a combat swords build, actually. Maybe deep sub doesn't need much more attention PvE-wise after all. Cheat Death will be godly IMO. A lot of BC fights aren't down-to-the-wire DPS races, and the general "not dying to random factors" thing becomes that much more important.

7% loss of DPS is worth it if it saves you from getting unavoidably gibbed 80% into the fight, after all.

For mages, frost is within 3% of fire next patch and they get Ice Block, and most of them are still going with fire. It's nice to see that subtlety is getting closer, but I think it still needs some PvE love.